Author Topic: TLI Plots  (Read 10992 times)

Offline HeadLikeARock

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TLI Plots
« on: July 27, 2014, 10:57:43 AM »
Hi

These TLI orbit plots are excellent, but they seem to me to contradict the plot on Bob's page here:-

http://www.braeunig.us/apollo/apollo11-TLI.htm



The plot shown above is curving away form Earth: shouldn't it be curving toward Earth? Would this plot make more sense if it had the same shape, but started on the LHS rather than the RHS?

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: TLI Plots
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2014, 12:01:02 PM »
I'm guessing the interest in the TLI and VABs arises from the recent offering from down under. There's a rebuttal to many of Jarrah's assumptions at AST, even if it is based on the back of a fag packet calculations. The rebuttal does actually cover some major errors on Jarrah's part.

Above Top Secret Forum

This saved me the effort, and covers most of my objections, specifically his assumptions that there is no energy distribution for the particles in the flux he uses, and that the particles lose energy as they pass through the CM. I also have objections regarding the bremsstrahlung assumptions.

In fact, Jarrah has managed to load a shotgun and point it at his own head by producing these calculations. It is very clear that if uses the data properly, which he has not, a journey through the VABs is possible.

I wonder if he is aware that most of his videos actually prove Apollo was very real, and he has actually done more damage to the hoax theory than any other human being has managed thus far with his ham fisted efforts.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 12:17:15 PM by Luke Pemberton »
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline HeadLikeARock

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Re: TLI Plots
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2014, 01:59:03 PM »
You're absolutely right :)

Thanks for the link to the ATS thread, very illuminating reading. I've made Jarrah White aware of the rebuttal, though I doubt he'll address it or withdraw his claim.

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: TLI Plots
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2014, 02:24:42 PM »
Thanks for the link to the ATS thread, very illuminating reading. I've made Jarrah White aware of the rebuttal, though I doubt he'll address it or withdraw his claim.

Of course not, as that would mean climbing down from the pedestal he has made for himself. I feel that dismantling that pedestal would mean swallowing far too much pride now and there is no way back for him.

It is a shame, as if he actually uses the data correctly and approaches the problem objectively by engaging with people, he's not far away from showing that traversing the VABs was possible. He just needs to think through his assumptions a little more, and how he has employed the data. In some ways I feel frustrated that he will not present his arguments here, as he clearly has a passion for all things space and enjoys science. I'd like him to break the shackles and enjoy Apollo for what it was, I'm feeling sorry for him (again). Maybe if he could stay on topic, avoid a gish gallop and be objective towards his perceived opponents here, then maybe, just maybe, the penny might drop.

I hope that one day he will look at his following pack and realise that he has something more about him than those that surround him, and this will allow him to drop the moon hoax.

In fairness to Jarrah he calculated Gray incorrectly, and he has since taken down his original video and replaced it with a revised set of calculations. I also have to give him a little kudos for what he has done, even though his numbers are wildly out and his assumptions are ludicrous. I think he's come a long way since he first appeared and he's developing a slightly better understanding. Sadly, he puts his ideas out there and quickly puts up a wall when people point out his errors; he then resorts to the Jarrah we all know too well.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline HeadLikeARock

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Re: TLI Plots
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2014, 04:23:27 PM »
I think you're right. Jarrah White is on the verge of being able to prove that the Van Allen belts aren't the obstacle to manned lunar landings that he's been claiming for years. It would be far too much of a climb-down to admit he was wrong: he would perceive it as a public humiliation too far after all the emotional energy he's invested. Of course, in my eyes, your eyes, and the eyes of most (if not all) non-hoax believers, he would go way up in our estimation. Sadly, I don't think truth is what he's out to get. I have a notion that he's only doing his degree so that he can claim that as some kind of validity of his anti-Apollo stance.

Wouldn't that be something though? His next video... "Er, guys, well isn't this a little bit awkward. After investigating the radiation issues surrounding the Van Allen belts, it seems that they weren't quite the impassable object I said they were. BUT... Apollo is still obviously faked because there's a rock casting a shadow in the wrong direction!"

Offline Bob B.

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Re: TLI Plots
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2014, 05:37:27 PM »
Hi

These TLI orbit plots are excellent, but they seem to me to contradict the plot on Bob's page here:-

http://www.braeunig.us/apollo/apollo11-TLI.htm



The plot shown above is curving away form Earth: shouldn't it be curving toward Earth? Would this plot make more sense if it had the same shape, but started on the LHS rather than the RHS?

The image above does not depict the geometry of the orbit.  It is a graph of height above the geomagnetic plane versus distance from Earth.  It is simply a data plot, not a visual representation of what the orbit looked like.  In reality the spacecraft was wrapping around Earth as it was moving up and away.  I hope that makes sense to you.

Offline HeadLikeARock

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Re: TLI Plots
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2014, 08:52:30 AM »
Thanks for the explanation Bob: all much clearer now :)

Offline Kiwi

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Re: TLI Plots
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2014, 10:46:12 AM »
The image above does not depict the geometry of the orbit.  It is a graph of height above the geomagnetic plane versus distance from Earth.  It is simply a data plot, not a visual representation of what the orbit looked like.  In reality the spacecraft was wrapping around Earth as it was moving up and away.  I hope that makes sense to you.

Thanks, guys.  I couldn't quite figure that diagram out either, and forgot to go back to Bob B's animation of the translunar and transearth journey.
http://www.braeunig.us/apollo/apollo11-TLI.htm
(Page down)

After the bolded bit (which shows that some explanations of Apollo can be very simple) I mentally added, "...because the VABs form a doughnut shape around Earth."

That now makes complete sense to me, but is my addition accurate?

Perhaps the word "roughly" should go between "VABs" and "form", or "rough" between "a" and "doughnut". Or is it near enough? And isn't "doughnut" "donut" in the US?  [Aaargh! Tears out thinning hair. It's getting complicated again!]

« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 11:00:43 AM by Kiwi »
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Offline Echnaton

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Re: TLI Plots
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2014, 12:20:39 PM »
And isn't "doughnut" "donut" in the US?  [Aaargh! Tears out thinning hair. It's getting complicated again!]
No matter how you spell it, "D'oh, nuts" is what White will say when he comes to his senses. 
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline BazBear

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Re: TLI Plots
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2014, 12:48:01 PM »
And isn't "doughnut" "donut" in the US?  [Aaargh! Tears out thinning hair. It's getting complicated again!]
No matter how you spell it, "D'oh, nuts" is what White will say when if he comes to his senses.
FTFY  ;)
"It's true you know. In space, no one can hear you scream like a little girl." - Mark Watney, protagonist of The Martian by Andy Weir

Offline Echnaton

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Re: TLI Plots
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2014, 02:56:43 PM »
And isn't "doughnut" "donut" in the US?  [Aaargh! Tears out thinning hair. It's getting complicated again!]
No matter how you spell it, "D'oh, nuts" is what White will say when if he comes to his senses.
FTFY  ;)
I expect a death bed recantation many years from now.  Witnessed by a single unnamed individual, first reported in a post from a dubious character on an unreliable web forum and proclaimed to have great but diverse and ambiguous meanings by a multitude of theorists.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline Bob B.

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Re: TLI Plots
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2014, 02:56:49 PM »
Thanks for the explanation Bob: all much clearer now :)

Here's another way to think of it...  Let's say we have a plane that passes through the center of Earth, the geomagnetic north pole, and the spacecraft.  As the spacecraft moves, the plane rotates around the geomagnetic axis so that it continues to pass through the spacecraft.  The path that the spacecraft inscribes on that plane is what we see in the referenced figure.

Offline HeadLikeARock

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Re: TLI Plots
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2014, 07:09:14 AM »
I can visualise that working nicely, but how does it all tie in with the static diagram/cross-section of the VA Belts? How does that remain static relative to the spacecraft as the plot changes? Or... and i may be answering my own question here: is it because the VA belts flux density map is a plane projection taken from the slice that incorporates both the geomagnetic pole and the orbital plane of the craft?

Offline Bob B.

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Re: TLI Plots
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2014, 09:01:19 PM »
I can visualise that working nicely, but how does it all tie in with the static diagram/cross-section of the VA Belts? How does that remain static relative to the spacecraft as the plot changes?

The VARB don't remain static relative to the spacecraft, but they do remain static relative to the rotating plane onto which we are projecting the movement of the spacecraft.  By plotting the movement of the spacecraft onto a plane that includes a static map of the VARB, we can see the path the spacecraft took relative to the VARB.

In reality, the VARB are not static.  They vary depending on solar activity and are compressed on the sunward side.  However, for my demonstration it is adequate to assume they are a uniform torus centered on the geomagnetic plane.

Offline HeadLikeARock

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Re: TLI Plots
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2014, 08:41:05 PM »
Thanks for your clarifications and succinct explanations on this one Bob, it's been a real help.