Author Topic: The Trump Presidency  (Read 399475 times)

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1005 on: May 09, 2020, 05:54:04 AM »
So Trump now thinks the COVID-19 tests are maybe not reliable because someone tested negative repeatedly then their latest test was positive. Clearly there can be no other explanation for this....

I don't wish this illness on anyone, but I find myself fervently wishing that Trump does not get it, because if he gets it and recovers can you imagine what his deuded sense of self-importance would make of that?!
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1006 on: May 09, 2020, 11:42:44 AM »
The man has never let not knowing how anything works stop him from being a successful businessman and the best U.S. President in history.  I'm surprised his disclosure of the name of the staffer didn't violate our health privacy laws.  We all assumed it did, but it doesn't forbid employers from naming employees and detailing any health history they know about the employee.  It's unethical and in extremely poor taste, but not illegal.  I assume more civilized countries have stronger privacy laws.

And I'm sure Donald Trump would be a smug survivor.  But what has me worried is that now the entire West Wing has been exposed.  While I'm sure they'll all be tested, the problem is quarantining that many high-level people should any of them test positive.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1007 on: May 09, 2020, 11:51:42 AM »
Oh, yeah, at least two people inside the White House have now tested positive.
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Offline LionKing

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1008 on: May 09, 2020, 11:56:16 AM »
I don't wish this illness on anyone, but I find myself fervently wishing that Trump does not get it, because if he gets it and recovers can you imagine what his deuded sense of self-importance would make of that?!

 Hahaha

Dear all , what do you think of what The Independent wrote of Trump wanting a civil war? Is this true in yout opinion?
“When you go through a hard period,
When everything seems to oppose you,
... When you feel you cannot even bear one more minute,
NEVER GIVE UP!
Because it is the time and place that the course will divert!”
 Rumi

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1009 on: May 09, 2020, 12:27:51 PM »
I had to read the article twice before understanding that it's not so much that Donald Trump wants a civil war as it is that he doesn't care if one happens so long as he gets what he wants.  He's a narcissist above all.  He will say or do whatever seems expedient in the moment to keep adulation focused on him and blame for any objectively adverse consequences placed squarely on someone else.  He calls for the "liberation" of states whose governors didn't defer to him not because he wants the rebellion that would tend to foment, but because he simply wants to punish certain individuals for their public defiance.  I believe he literally does not care what the actual consequences would be to people in those states who suffer as a result.  Putting yourself in the President's likely mindset, It's easy to say those people suffer because of their governors' lack of cooperation.  He walks away blameless.

The author is an American -- a New Yorker, in fact.  We can presume she knows the person of Donald Trump well.  She points to all the traditional betrayals others have noted in the President's wake.  She is right about one thing we discussed a few pages ago.  While the President is clearly not an intelligent man in many ways, he has a New York brand of street smarts.  He's a very shrewd salesman, and speaks in the ways that get people to do things they probably would not do otherwise.  Up until now he has been able to squeak past the consequences of his many failures.  I mean all the times when the facts fail to correspond to his puffery.  He declares bankruptcy.  He shifts blame.  He changes tack.  But his all-style, no-substance puffery is why the President holds campaign rallies instead of press conferences.  (We've seen how badly he handles those.)  All he really knows how to do is keep a crowd riled up.  And as long as they're riled up in a way that strokes his ego, he simply does not care what that riled-up mob ends up doing, or how many of that mob ends up dying.  He firmly believes none of it will ever be his fault, and he will never be held accountable for it -- either in fact or in his own mind.

Ms Selinger predicts that civil war is inevitable in the United States.  I assume she means literally, but she doesn't say.  Clearly we're headed for a crisis of some form.  But in fairness, the U.S. has been headed in this direction for a long time.  Donald Trump as President of the U.S. is a symptom of tose forces, I believe, not the cause.  That is, I think the forces that are pushing the U.S. toward some sort of end game allowed such a man as Donald Trump to be elected President.  But to say that war is what Trump wants is, in my judgment, stretching the Seilinger's point.  I doubt he necessarily wants a literal war.  But he's okay pushing the buttons that may cause one as a side effect.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1010 on: May 09, 2020, 12:37:20 PM »
if he gets it and recovers can you imagine what his deuded sense of self-importance would make of that?!

Both the President and the Vice President have been exposed by having someone test positive in their inner circles.  Imagine that both contract COVID-19 and neither recovers.  According to the U.S. Constitution's rules of succession, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi would then become President.  The thought of that is sure to make both Donald Trump and Mike Pence want to hole up in a bunker about now.  It's not so much the smugness of biological survival, I think, as the sheer political need not to die.  One of them would pull through just out of sheer political stubbornness.

As a side note, I've started picking my way through Erskine May's book on U.K. government.  While the book didn't exist at the time the Framers form the United States, the long-standing traditions it codifies would have formed the backdrop of their work.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline LionKing

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1011 on: May 09, 2020, 05:55:32 PM »
I had to read the article twice before understanding that it's not so much that Donald Trump wants a civil war as it is that he doesn't care if one happens so long as he gets what he wants.  He's a narcissist above all.  He will say or do whatever seems expedient in the moment to keep adulation focused on him and blame for any objectively adverse consequences placed squarely on someone else.  He calls for the "liberation" of states whose governors didn't defer to him not because he wants the rebellion that would tend to foment, but because he simply wants to punish certain individuals for their public defiance.  I believe he literally does not care what the actual consequences would be to people in those states who suffer as a result.  Putting yourself in the President's likely mindset, It's easy to say those people suffer because of their governors' lack of cooperation.  He walks away blameless.

The author is an American -- a New Yorker, in fact.  We can presume she knows the person of Donald Trump well.  She points to all the traditional betrayals others have noted in the President's wake.  She is right about one thing we discussed a few pages ago.  While the President is clearly not an intelligent man in many ways, he has a New York brand of street smarts.  He's a very shrewd salesman, and speaks in the ways that get people to do things they probably would not do otherwise.  Up until now he has been able to squeak past the consequences of his many failures.  I mean all the times when the facts fail to correspond to his puffery.  He declares bankruptcy.  He shifts blame.  He changes tack.  But his all-style, no-substance puffery is why the President holds campaign rallies instead of press conferences.  (We've seen how badly he handles those.)  All he really knows how to do is keep a crowd riled up.  And as long as they're riled up in a way that strokes his ego, he simply does not care what that riled-up mob ends up doing, or how many of that mob ends up dying.  He firmly believes none of it will ever be his fault, and he will never be held accountable for it -- either in fact or in his own mind.

Ms Selinger predicts that civil war is inevitable in the United States.  I assume she means literally, but she doesn't say.  Clearly we're headed for a crisis of some form.  But in fairness, the U.S. has been headed in this direction for a long time.  Donald Trump as President of the U.S. is a symptom of tose forces, I believe, not the cause.  That is, I think the forces that are pushing the U.S. toward some sort of end game allowed such a man as Donald Trump to be elected President.  But to say that war is what Trump wants is, in my judgment, stretching the Seilinger's point.  I doubt he necessarily wants a literal war.  But he's okay pushing the buttons that may cause one as a side effect.

I see. Thnx for the input. He is anyway no better than a street thug ..
“When you go through a hard period,
When everything seems to oppose you,
... When you feel you cannot even bear one more minute,
NEVER GIVE UP!
Because it is the time and place that the course will divert!”
 Rumi

Offline Ranb

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1012 on: May 10, 2020, 02:33:59 AM »
  The thought of that is sure to make both Donald Trump and Mike Pence want to hole up in a bunker about now.
Maybe not.  Both of them have resisted leading by example.  Pence was most noteworthy by refusing to socially distance or wear a mask per Mayo Clinic policy when he visisted.

Offline raven

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1013 on: May 10, 2020, 03:59:51 AM »
Well, Pence's Chief of Staff has been diagnosed with it as his press secretary, so we shall see how things proceed from here.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1014 on: May 10, 2020, 04:00:05 AM »
  The thought of that is sure to make both Donald Trump and Mike Pence want to hole up in a bunker about now.
Maybe not.  Both of them have resisted leading by example.  Pence was most noteworthy by refusing to socially distance or wear a mask per Mayo Clinic policy when he visisted.

And this is surely where it is clear that fear is the driving force behind this US government. No-one, absolutely no-one, should have been permitted into the facility while blatantly and wilfully disregarding the health and safety measures put in place to protect everyone there. But apparently no-one was willing to stand up to the VP and tell him to do it right or get out.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline Peter B

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1015 on: May 10, 2020, 10:52:21 AM »
...Ms Selinger predicts that civil war is inevitable in the United States.  I assume she means literally, but she doesn't say.  Clearly we're headed for a crisis of some form.  But in fairness, the U.S. has been headed in this direction for a long time.  Donald Trump as President of the U.S. is a symptom of tose forces, I believe, not the cause.  That is, I think the forces that are pushing the U.S. toward some sort of end game allowed such a man as Donald Trump to be elected President.  But to say that war is what Trump wants is, in my judgment, stretching the Seilinger's point.  I doubt he necessarily wants a literal war.  But he's okay pushing the buttons that may cause one as a side effect.

A few years ago I saw a novel by Orson Scott Card called "Empire". It posits a civil war in a politically divided USA, from which emerges a bipartisan candidate. OSC was very obviously modelling the future of the USA as transitioning in some way similar to the way the Roman Republic transformed into an Empire, with that bipartisan president modelled on the first Roman Emperor, Augustus.

I don't see this as likely, simply because at the moment the supporters of the two main parties seem to be too opposed to each other to accept the idea of the parties agreeing on much at all, let alone something as significant as a Presidential candidate.

The model I see for the USA's future, rather more worryingly, is that of Spain in 1936. Spain had a democracy through the 1930s which more or less worked, except that the voting system favoured large coalitions, leading to steadily more extreme positions at each end of the political spectrum.

Then, four months after a left-wing coalition won power, the army attempted a coup which only partly succeeded. They captured a few cities in the south of Spain and had widespread support among the wealthier peasant farmers of the north. But the large cities and central and eastern Spain supported the government.

Both sides had foreign support, and both sides indulged in bloodshed at the expense of people in their own controlled territory who were suspected of supporting the other side. Over the course of three years of fighting the rebels gained control of the country, installing General Franco as the leader of Spain.

In the decades that followed, it wasn't a good career move to be known as someone who'd supported one of the parties of the Republican government. But on the other hand, giving Spain a generation with essentially no politics seems to have allowed the political parties to reset, meaning that since democracy was restored it has remained politically stable.

The problem is that I just don't know that the world can indulge the USA in a three year civil war followed by 30+ years of dictatorial rule to allow political passions to cool.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1016 on: May 10, 2020, 12:51:42 PM »
The problem is that I just don't know that the world can indulge the USA in a three year civil war followed by 30+ years of dictatorial rule to allow political passions to cool.

That doesn't bode well for me.  The U.S. Air Force has a lot of practice bombing Utah.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1017 on: May 10, 2020, 01:07:40 PM »
Well, Pence's Chief of Staff has been diagnosed with it as his press secretary, so we shall see how things proceed from here.

The White House uses the Abbott rapid-test method, which has a 15% false-negative rate.  I found the nasopharyngeal swab profoundly uncomfortable, so I'm not surprised they're opting for a less invasive method and a more frequent test.  However, if they're relying upon this to protect the White House, they're taking an awful risk.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1018 on: May 10, 2020, 02:30:25 PM »
Both of them have resisted leading by example.

Donald Trump doesn't strike me as the kind of person who believes in leadership by example.  As a narcissist, he directs others but does not consider himself subject to direction -- even his own.  The socioeconomic class he grew up in is notorious for elitism and exceptionalism.  Only the "little people" have to obey the rules.

Quote
Pence was most noteworthy by refusing to socially distance or wear a mask per Mayo Clinic policy when he visited.

But apparently no-one was willing to stand up to the VP and tell him to do it right or get out.

A hallmark of a successful leader is demonstrating the willingness to follow when appropriate.  Mike Pence may be the Vice President of the United States, but when he enters a hospital, that's someone else's castle.  You show your respect for authority -- anyone's authority -- by deferring to them when you're in their territory.  And as the titular leader of the U.S. pandemic response, Pence had a special obligation to obey health and safety regulations.

I've seen a report that the Vice President required business officers to remove their masks when meeting with him.  That goes beyond his personal disobedience.  Deciding for yourself that you're not going to take customary precautions is one thing.  Admittedly a bad thing in a pandemic, where your choice may affect someone else.  However, when you decide for others that they don't get to take precautions they deem advisable, that's crossing a further line.  I have a hard time interpreting that as anything but a political statement.  The Trump administration keeps flirting with the conspiracy theory that COVID-19 is not a serious illness and that mortality rates are being overstated.  I wonder if this behavior is a subtle suggest to the Republican base.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline gillianren

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Re: The Trump Presidency
« Reply #1019 on: May 11, 2020, 12:10:39 PM »
It's pretty well acknowledged that, once Republicans start taking the pandemic seriously, they stop supporting the current administration.  Because if you take the pandemic seriously, you can't take their response seriously.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates