Author Topic: Earth from Moon Photos  (Read 9128 times)

Offline vonmazur

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Earth from Moon Photos
« on: December 12, 2016, 03:25:33 AM »
Fellows, I have a person who is questioning the lack of pix of the Earth taken from the surface of the Moon during the Apollo missions. I was wondering if they made any shots of the Earth overhead while they were on the surface ?

Dale

Offline Bryanpoprobson

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Re: Earth from Moon Photos
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2016, 04:08:00 AM »
Fellows, I have a person who is questioning the lack of pix of the Earth taken from the surface of the Moon during the Apollo missions. I was wondering if they made any shots of the Earth overhead while they were on the surface ?

Dale

Lot's, there was a thread on it..

http://www.apollohoax.net/forum/index.php?topic=699.0
"Wise men speak because they have something to say!" "Fools speak, because they have to say something!" (Plato)

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Earth from Moon Photos
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2016, 04:13:09 AM »
^what he said, with the additional info that TV images were also obtained of Earth.

There is TV footage of astronauts taking photographs of Earth in Apollo 11 and 17, and they had to go to some trouble to get them, thanks to the high position of the Earth in the lunar sky.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Earth from Moon Photos
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2016, 07:10:35 AM »
Fellows, I have a person who is questioning the lack of pix of the Earth taken from the surface of the Moon during the Apollo missions. I was wondering if they made any shots of the Earth overhead while they were on the surface ?

Plenty, but since their mission was to take pictures of and collect samples from the lunar surface, even if there were no photos of Earth taken from the lunar surface this would not actually be suspect. Look at it this way: up in the sky is the Earth that has been photographed many times from space, while down at their feet is a new pristine landscape never before seen this close up by anyone. Which would you be taking pictures of?

Dale
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Offline bknight

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Re: Earth from Moon Photos
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2016, 08:03:05 AM »
I agree with Jason the missions was to examine and evaluate a surface not surveyed first hand.  The same can be said of stars, why take images of stars?
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Earth from Moon Photos
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2016, 11:10:22 AM »
Fellows, I have a person who is questioning the lack of pix of the Earth taken from the surface of the Moon during the Apollo missions.

There's no point in trying to satisfy him by showing him any shots. Instead attack his line of thought. What would he expect to gain by taking photos of the Earth from 1/4 million miles away? What would that show us?

He's approaching this with a standard conspiracy theorist mindset- "there's not many pictures of the Earth therefore they didn't go to the Moon". There's not many pictures of Everest base-camp from the summit.....does that mean that the 4000+ people that have summitted are all liars? What would be gained by taking a picture of the base camp form the summit? Especially with the tiny cameras that's available to summiters. Or would your acquaintance expect mountaineers to haul a massive telephoto camera up to the summit and deliver a picture that would be lower in detail than one that could be taken from 100 metres away from base camp?

Likewise, why would the Apollo explorers be bothered hauling a telescope to the Moon to take pictures of the Earth? His basic premise is ridiculous- attack that first before providing any evidence of the pictures that so include the Earth. Otherwise he'll just handwave away that evidence and shift the goalposts onto some other ridiculous proposition.

What one mission did do was haul an far-ultraviolet sensitive telescope to the Moon. This was used to take pictures that are impossible from the Earth, including images of the upper atmosphere and aurora. I'd like to hear a hoax-believer explain that one.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Halcyon Dayz, FCD

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Re: Earth from Moon Photos
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2016, 04:45:46 PM »
What one mission did do was haul an far-ultraviolet sensitive telescope to the Moon. This was used to take pictures that are impossible from the Earth, including images of the upper atmosphere and aurora. I'd like to hear a hoax-believer explain that one.
"CGI!"

It's always CGI or Photoshop, no evidence given.
This whole burden of proof thing is a mystery to some people.
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Earth from Moon Photos
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2016, 05:04:27 PM »

"CGI!"

It's always CGI or Photoshop, no evidence given.
This whole burden of proof thing is a mystery to some people.

If only the dumb f*%wits would spend a little time doing some real research then they would learn of the novel solutions that were required.  >:(
The world's most powerful nation had diverted a massive amount of money into Apollo, had the brightest engineers and scientists working on it and had the very best technology available at the time. Yet, they couldn't create a simple CGI user-interface.

 "The mainframes generally only provided numbers, usually in columns, on the console screens. The work the computers did was to extract the parameters from the telemetry stream, verify they were correct (not garbled that is), and then translate them in the values (units) used by the flight controllers. Sometimes the translation included comparing the value to a norm or limit.

The numbers were then displayed on a CRT screen, and a full-sized "background" slide which had descriptive text and titles was positioned over the CRT. A TV camera then looked down on this composite image and every console viewing that "display" simply saw that TV camera image on their screen.

Consoles could "control" which display and matching background slide were called up by dialing in a specific display number. This caused the display system to tell the mainframe which CRT/slide overlay set to use (i.e., which "channel"), and further caused the proper background slide to move in front of that CRT. The selecting console's monitor was then attached automatically to that channel.

Other consoles could then simply go to that "channel" to watch the same display (or jump back and forth between different displays).

There was no local "hardcopy" capability (no printers). Instead, for this and other reasons, each console was equipped with a "P-tube" similar to that used to day in drive-in banking. This P-tube system extended throughout the control center for moving paper from console to console. When a flight controller hit his "hard copy" button on particular TV channel, the composite image was printed on thermal copy paper at a central location which include a print-out of the requesting console. Technicians stationed at these hard copy machines would take each hard copy and place it in a P-Tube and send it to the requester."
(source:http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum29/HTML/000635.html )

"How each channel was generated, though, is almost shockingly primitive by today's standards. The computers downstairs in the RTCC were responsible for producing the actual data, which could be numbers, a series of plotted points, or a single projected moving point. The System/360 mainframes generated the requested data on a CRT screen using dedicated digital-to-television display generators; positioned over the CRT in turn was a video camera, watching the screen. For the oxygen status display example above, the mainframe would produce a series of numerical columns and print them on the CRT.

The numbers were just that, though. No column headings, no labels, no descriptive text, no formatting, no cell outlines, no nothing—bare, unadorned columns of numbers. In order to make them more understandable, an automated mechanical system would retrieve an actual physical slide containing printed column headings and other formatting reference information from a huge bank of such slides, and place the slide over a light source and project it through a series of lenses into the video camera positioned above the CRT. The mixed image, made up of the CRT's bare columns and the slide containing the formatting, was then transmitted to the controller's console screen as a single video stream.

This process was necessary to dress up and clarify the mainframes' sparse output, since the modern concept of a single unified graphical display consisting of mixed static and dynamic elements was impossible with the era's technology. The mainframe produced the naked numbers or the moving dot, the slide provided the formatting or the background image, and a video camera transmitted the two separate elements sandwiched together for display on the controllers' console screens"
(source: http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/10/going-boldly-what-it-was-like-to-be-an-apollo-flight-controller/2/ )
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Morgul

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Re: Earth from Moon Photos
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2016, 10:12:43 AM »
This process was necessary to dress up and clarify the mainframes' sparse output, since the modern concept of a single unified graphical display consisting of mixed static and dynamic elements was impossible with the era's technology. The mainframe produced the naked numbers or the moving dot, the slide provided the formatting or the background image, and a video camera transmitted the two separate elements sandwiched together for display on the controllers' console screens"

See, this is why I love this site.  I always come away with some fascinating new bit of information that I didn't know before.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Earth from Moon Photos
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2016, 04:46:29 PM »
I was wondering if they made any shots of the Earth overhead while they were on the surface ?
Here are two of my favorite Apollo 11 pictures:

https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5923HR.jpg
https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5924HR.jpg

The round object on the right side of the LM is the steerable S-band communications antenna pointed at earth. I'm a radio communications engineer, and these pictures sum up one of the most remarkable things about radio communications: how much cheaper and easier it is to span vast distances with radio waves than with physical transportation.

Offline Count Zero

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Re: Earth from Moon Photos
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2016, 06:37:04 PM »
I was wondering if they made any shots of the Earth overhead while they were on the surface ?
Here are two of my favorite Apollo 11 pictures:

https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5923HR.jpg
https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5924HR.jpg

You can see Australia on the left in these photos.

My favorite pix of the Earth from the lunar surface were from Apollo 17 take during EVA 2 when they parked at the base of the South Massif:

AS17-137-20910
AS17-137-20911
AS17-137-20957
AS17-137-20958
AS17-137-20959
AS17-137-20960
AS17-137-20961

It looks like the Earth is close to the horizon, but the camera is actually looking up a steep slope towards the summit of the massif.

Apollo 17 also had some good Earth & flag pix:

AS17-134-20384
AS17-134-20387
AS17-134-20465
AS17-134-20466

And here's a few more:

AS17-134-20471
AS17-134-20473
AS17-134-20461
AS17-134-20463
AS17-134-20464
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Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Earth from Moon Photos
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2016, 12:30:45 AM »
I was wondering if they made any shots of the Earth overhead while they were on the surface ?
Here are two of my favorite Apollo 11 pictures:

https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5923HR.jpg
https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5924HR.jpg

The round object on the right side of the LM is the steerable S-band communications antenna pointed at earth. I'm a radio communications engineer, and these pictures sum up one of the most remarkable things about radio communications: how much cheaper and easier it is to span vast distances with radio waves than with physical transportation.

Here's Buzz taking those two photos:



The arrow is at 59 degrees from horizontal, which is the elevation of Earth above the horizon :)

Offline Count Zero

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Re: Earth from Moon Photos
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2016, 01:19:25 PM »
The arrow is at 59 degrees from horizontal, which is the elevation of Earth above the horizon :)

<wince>  Well, yes and no.  Yes, I'll grant you that the arrow is 59° from horizontal, and the Earth was 59° above the horizon, but they really wouldn't have anything to do with each other unless A.)  The line from Buzz to the Earth's azimuth was perpendicular to the line from the TV camera to Buzz, and B). Buzz was pointing the camera directly at the Earth.  Neither of these is the case.

I don't have time to do the trig, but I took some quick measurements:

Earth's azimuth from Tranquility Base on 7/20/1969:  ~272°
Azimuth of Buzz from the TV camera:  ~131°
Ideal angle from TV-Buzz-Earth for the arrow to match the Earth's elevation:  90°
Actual angle from TV-Buzz-Earth:  ~39°

Thus, in a 3-dimensional representation, the line from Buzz to the Earth would be rotated towards the TV camera, and would thus (in a 2D image) be steeper than the arrow you drew.

However, Buzz is not pointing the camera at the Earth.  Just a quick eye-ballin' puts the center of the image ~18° lower and a few degrees to the left of the Earth.  Also, the camera is rotated from vertical, but I don't have time to measure that because I've gotta git.

Have fun with the math and post your results.  :)
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Offline gwiz

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Re: Earth from Moon Photos
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2016, 05:44:42 AM »
On the other hand, a line from Buzz's camera to the top of the LM, which is about central in the photo, should be about right, no maths needed.
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Offline Abaddon

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Re: Earth from Moon Photos
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2016, 11:14:54 AM »
I was wondering if they made any shots of the Earth overhead while they were on the surface ?
Here are two of my favorite Apollo 11 pictures:

https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5923HR.jpg
https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5924HR.jpg

The round object on the right side of the LM is the steerable S-band communications antenna pointed at earth. I'm a radio communications engineer, and these pictures sum up one of the most remarkable things about radio communications: how much cheaper and easier it is to span vast distances with radio waves than with physical transportation.
IIRC, were you not involved in that huge Apollo link budget discussion someplace?