Author Topic: Good books about the moon landings hoax?  (Read 341791 times)

Offline Glom

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2014, 03:18:41 PM »
You all have it wrong. The crosshairs argument is way sillier than the shadows.

I mean why would anyone trying to produce a convincing scene mock up a photo in the way conspiracists posit? Didn't David Percy actually say it was the work of whistleblowers? That's how incoherent the argument is. Conspiracists are themselves having to pile on the ridiculousness to rationalise their own ridiculousness.

Offline nomuse

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2014, 03:23:28 PM »
True enough. I fall back on the shadows, or the no-stars, because they are the simplest errors to describe.

Offline raven

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2014, 03:53:21 PM »
You all have it wrong. The crosshairs argument is way sillier than the shadows.

I mean why would anyone trying to produce a convincing scene mock up a photo in the way conspiracists posit? Didn't David Percy actually say it was the work of whistleblowers? That's how incoherent the argument is. Conspiracists are themselves having to pile on the ridiculousness to rationalise their own ridiculousness.
On a similar note, the 'lack' of crater. Surely they could have added one before putting the LM in place if one should be there.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2014, 03:54:20 PM »
Wikipedia calls this "Kettle Logic."

This is often legitimately confusing because it's not always a fallacy.

Notably in legal arguments, one may advance several legal theories, some of which may be incompatible if taken conjuctively.  However, depending upon how the facts bear out at trial and how the judge wants to shape precedent, one may be selected for ruling and the others rendered moot.  Judges can only rule on theories presented to them, so this creates an artificial motive for lawyers to cover all the bases and present several theories.

In general argumentation, if the alternatives are presented as a disjunction there is no fallacy.  David Percy provided a good example.  He claimed in one case that artificial lighting had to have been used on some particular photograph because no other explanation sufficed.  A deluge of alternatives issued from his critics, none of which he had apparently considered.  Percy noted that some were incompatible and evaded an answer by noting that his critics "couldn't make up their minds."  But in fact the set of unconsidered alternatives was not presented as a conjunction of hypotheses all of which had to be true.  Percy's claim fails if even one of the alternatives is true.

Reasoning with scant data often requires us to set up multiple hypotheses that delineate how to reason one way or another depending on outcomes or uncertainties.  These help us plan investigations and also set up a framework for statistical reasoning.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Allan F

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2014, 04:15:49 PM »
The 'C' rock always makes me laugh. If NASA put letters on their set dressing rocks, does that mean they only had 26 of them? With the billions they were spending on the hoax, couldn't they afford a few more?

I can't find the post, but HeadLikeARock and Glom pushed it hard with HBs that the photo taken directly before the C-rock photo has no C on the rock.

Again, I cannot find the post, but the C rock photo also appeared on the front of a magazine within weeks of the Apollo 16 landings. Again, no C was visible on the rock. I'm sure the magazine cover was posted when on the proboards.

This one? https://www.flickr.com/photos/83874396@N06/13325730833/
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #65 on: August 26, 2014, 04:24:08 PM »
This one? https://www.flickr.com/photos/83874396@N06/13325730833/

Thanks, just found the link from a YouTube video. That's four times this week I've been beaten to the punch.





ETA: I've now posted 333 times. For those that know their cricket, I've levelled with Goochy on triple Nelson. OK, no one cares...
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 04:26:07 PM by Luke Pemberton »
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

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A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline nomuse

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #66 on: August 26, 2014, 04:32:28 PM »
Hrm.

I know a lot of hoax believers present in terms of "investigation" or "exploration." So you could excuse the multiple inconsistent ideas as being exploratory in nature.

The problem I have is when they are sorting out specific observations in support of a single thesis. The moment they move from "this shadow is inconsistent" to "this shadow also points towards stage lighting" (their word), they are implicitly constructing the much smaller set of single coherent patterns that include only those observations that match them.

Plus, they more often present in terms of a well-supported conclusion. Instead of saying "explore with me" they say "follow my impeccable chain of logic."



Heh. Thinking about process again. I've had plenty of times the problem you hint at; constructing a hypothesis too early. I come up with an explanation that fits three observations more-or-less, and proceed to tear down a piece of gear. And after working away with the circuit testers and so forth for a few hours, I finally realize there was a better explanation -- one that includes several observations I'd decided weren't important.


Offline Mag40

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #67 on: August 26, 2014, 04:42:54 PM »
ETA: I've now posted 333 times. For those that know their cricket, I've levelled with Goochy on triple Nelson. OK, no one cares...

Just for you a triple nelson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HduD5FWIEjM#t=91

Offline Luke Pemberton

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Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #69 on: August 26, 2014, 05:43:51 PM »
For sheer sillyness, the lack of rover tracks is another good one.  So let's get this right, we have a wheeled vehicle capable of being driven into a position that is was supposed to be driven into.   But instead of driving it in into that position, we decide to hoist it into place with a crane.  Meanwhile it never occurs to anyone that by hoisting it we never produce the tire tracks that should have been there had we driven it.

Offline Andromeda

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #70 on: August 26, 2014, 05:50:38 PM »
Similarly with the so-called 'waving flag', Bob.

Imagine it - a very secret, large and expensive set (put together by experienced professional technicians with the money of the US Govt behind them) has a strong wind blowing across it and no-one at any point during the 'filming' ever says "uhhhhhh... someone is gonna notice that...".

It's ludicrous.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'" - Isaac Asimov.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2014, 05:59:05 PM »
For sheer sillyness, the lack of rover tracks is another good one.  So let's get this right, we have a wheeled vehicle capable of being driven into a position that is was supposed to be driven into.   But instead of driving it in into that position, we decide to hoist it into place with a crane.  Meanwhile it never occurs to anyone that by hoisting it we never produce the tire tracks that should have been there had we driven it.

Ralph Rene on the rover:
"Notice also that the Rover has left tracks that show an abrupt right angle turn. Have you ever seen any vehicle that could do that? It looks like stage hands lifted up the front and dragged the Rover around to the left just before this picture was taken. Only a two wheeled hand truck can leave such a track."
No Ralph----a vehicle that has rear-wheel or 4-wheel steering (such as the rover) can also leave a track like that.

It's the sheer lack of even the most basic of research that does it for me. OK, there might be a tiny, tiny argument that people like Rene didn't have access to the wealth of knowledge that we in out Internet-enabled modernity have. But that argument cannot hold water for anyone that blindly parrots that old claptrap today. I mean, why wouldn't you spend an afternoon on Wikipedia and just check this stuff out???
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Bob B.

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #72 on: August 26, 2014, 06:12:27 PM »
It's the sheer lack of even the most basic of research that does it for me.

One word ... NASASCAM.

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2014, 06:15:27 PM »
One word ... NASASCAM.

In a twisted way i loved that site, if only for the immortal line:

"FACT: Rumour has it..."
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline RAF

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2014, 06:18:20 PM »
On a similar note, the 'lack' of crater. Surely they could have added one before putting the LM in place if one should be there.

Oh, it's much worse than that. One of the very first things Armstrong said as he stepped onto the surface was about (paraphrasing) the "surprising lack of a crater under the descent engine".

If the lack of a crater was such a big deal, wouldn't someone inform Neil not to mention this?