Author Topic: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch  (Read 123214 times)

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #135 on: December 15, 2018, 09:59:12 PM »
Jay et al, I am not quite sure why everyone spends all their time questioning my motives and intentions...

Because your behavior is suspicious.  You say you want to have a "fruitful" discussion, but you're also trying to keep all your cards hidden.  And you assiduously avoid having to admit a mistake.  As long as you remain dishonest about why you're here, you will be treated with suspicion.  If your goal is to try to prove a hoax, you will be treated with respect so long as you say so.

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...and not addressing the issues I have laid out?

We addressed the issues you laid out.  You said no-thank-you and reasserted your ill-informed "suspicions."

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And It is actually Jay who seems very quiet regarding my questions about A17 EVA/LM...

Straw man.  As I told you, I'm waiting for you to concede the issues that conform to the title of this thread.  You started on plume deflectors and then changed the subject as soon as it was obvious you were in over your head.  And did it again.  And again.  What's wrong with wanting closure on previous topics before moving on?

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He doesn't need to, if he doesn't want.

But apparently I do, otherwise I'm "quiet."  Do you really think this passive-aggressive nonsense doesn't get noticed for what it is?

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I just wish the thread didn't get cluttered up with 'you are a hoaxer, reveal yourself' stuff.

Then don't act in a way that engenders that suspicion.  Do you really think you're the first hoax claimant to try the stealth entry?

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I like to stick to the meat and potatoes of things and have a fruitful dialectic dialogue with others.

You started with meat, had one bite, moved on to potatoes, had one more bite, and so forth.  You're jumping from course to course as if you can't make up your mind what you're hungry for.  You said it was no big deal that others here knew something you didn't.  So it shouldn't be a big deal for you to concede you were mistaken about the plume deflectors, the RCS jets, and the visibility out of the LM.  And when you told us there were things you are competent in, I asked what those might be.  Any chance of getting answers?  Or are you just going to try to get as much mileage as possible out of my unwillingness to follow your latest distraction?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 10:01:48 PM by JayUtah »
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Offline jr Knowing

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #136 on: December 15, 2018, 10:10:07 PM »
Hi Peter B,

The left tire is at least thirty percent bigger than the right. How is that possible if the pic is taken from this distance? Download the hi resolution photo of the LR pic.  Zoom into the rear wheels. Both tires are off the ground. Not only will you will see there are no tire tracks but there a footprints instead (especially right tire) I have also attached a marked photo pointing to the rear axels. One is pointing outwards and the other is much smaller pointing inwards. With regards to the rear antenna (the name escapes me) the antenna normally looks flat. ie the wires are flat, horizontal. The only way you can see this design is from below.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #137 on: December 15, 2018, 10:21:19 PM »
The left tire is at least thirty percent bigger than the right. How is that possible if the pic is taken from this distance?

I'll tell you how it's possible if you concede you were mistaken about the plume deflectors and the RCS.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #138 on: December 15, 2018, 10:26:42 PM »
The left tire is at least thirty percent bigger than the right. How is that possible if the pic is taken from this distance?

I'll tell you how it's possible if you concede you were mistaken about the plume deflectors and the RCS.

Makes you wonder if he/she has ever taken a photograph and then looked at it?

Offline nomuse

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #139 on: December 15, 2018, 10:44:25 PM »
Hi Peter B,

The left tire is at least thirty percent bigger than the right. How is that possible if the pic is taken from this distance? Download the hi resolution photo of the LR pic.  Zoom into the rear wheels. Both tires are off the ground. Not only will you will see there are no tire tracks but there a footprints instead (especially right tire) I have also attached a marked photo pointing to the rear axels. One is pointing outwards and the other is much smaller pointing inwards. With regards to the rear antenna (the name escapes me) the antenna normally looks flat. ie the wires are flat, horizontal. The only way you can see this design is from below.

Okay, I'll bite. How IS it possible?

You have rejected the possibility of these being ordinary and well-understood artifacts of perspective and optics.

So what is your explanation? Please, be as detailed as you like.

Please, in fact, provide any detail at all. Anything more substantial than a vague assertion that there's a whiff of hydrogen sulfide floating in the air above Copenhagen. I do so look forward to whatever phantasmagoria of pasted-up photos, absurd models, whistle-blowers with all the logic and sense of self preservation of a Batman villain, or whatever else you can concoct as a replacement for reality.

Offline Peter B

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #140 on: December 16, 2018, 12:14:42 AM »
Hi Jay, Obviousman, Peter B,

Peter B, The answer is simple. She moved two of her work days in the week till after Thursday.

Very good. (And for the rest of you who mightn't have twigged yet, the employee in question shifted from working Monday, Tuesday Wednesday to Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.) The thing is, though, that while the answer was simple to you, a colleague and I spent the best part of two hours trying to explain this to the employee in question, and she didn't get it.

And so it is here: it would be helpful all round if you'd be willing to accept that subject-matter experts (a) understand a given topic better than you, (b) understand exactly what your non-expert concern is, and (c) understand why your concern isn't actually a problem. Whether it's the size of LM windows or the position of SM RCS rockets, the engineers who designed these things looked at these issues and tested them all out prior to building the dang things. The people on this forum who work in the field today understand in detail what those engineers did and why - understand it in a visceral and instinctive way that I know I don't.

Take the LM's four legs, for example. The LM's designers didn't just sit around a table and agree that four's a nice number, let's give the LM four legs. Instead they looked at designs with three legs and other designs with five legs. They went away, did some sums about mass and about weight distribution, looked at images of the Moon close up and talked to experts about the Moon's surface, and then went and did some testing with models. They then chose four legs for the LM, on the basis of the test results.

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And with regards to your comments about the preponderance of evidence, it is mainly from government sources. And as we have all come to know, governments can and have done some crazy, even unspeakable things.

Yes, governments do crazy, even unspeakable things. Well, to be precise, the people who work in those governments do those things, given that governments are abstractions.

However, your comment is unhelpful in at least three ways.

Firstly, just because a government does something crazy in situation A doesn't mean it would do something crazy in situation B. After all, I'm sure you accept that governments also do sensible and even noble things in some situations. On that basis Apollo must be sensible and maybe even noble.

Secondly, as others have pointed out, governments aren't monolithic things. Seeing as they're made up of people, and people behave as individuals, the result is that governments behave in anything but monolithic ways. Different agencies can often have conflicting agendas, and the result is that crazy actions are usually made public within a short period of time, either through inter-agency conflict, or interpersonal or inter-section conflict within the agency. (President Kennedy's science advisor Jerome Wiesner opposed manned space flight because he thought it was an expensive and dangerous way to do space science; he was right, but lost out because he completely missed the non-science (that is, Cold War propaganda) value of manned space flight. The point is that there were people in the government who were in a position to know the reality or otherwise of Apollo and who were quite willing to speak publicly against it.)

Thirdly, you're wrong that the evidence for Apollo is predominantly from the government, by which I assume you mean the US government. Note that the two examples I gave were from the USSR and Australia. In any case the components of the Apollo-Saturn vehicle were built by private contractors (including at least one person who was a willing whistleblower about problems in the Command Module). The Apollo rocks were studied by university scientists from around the world. Telemetry from the spacecraft was picked up by private citizens from around the world (see Sven Grahn). Pictures of the spacecraft on the way to the Moon were taken by astronomers from around the world.

And no one has come forward with any evidence that Apollo was hoaxed. Not one noble patriot. Not one deathbed confession. Not one letter to be opened after someone's death.

More importantly, no one has explained how Apollo could be faked. Not one self-consistent narrative has ever been presented.

Instead, as I said before, every thread of evidence independently points to the same conclusion.
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Offline Peter B

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #141 on: December 16, 2018, 12:39:48 AM »
Hi Peter B,

The left tire is at least thirty percent bigger than the right.

Hi jr Knowing

I'd dispute that 30% figure. How did you arrive at it? Is it based on actual maths or a guess? How much further away from the camera is the smaller wheel?

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How is that possible if the pic is taken from this distance?

I already gave you a lead to investigate in my last post when I said "camera".

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Download the hi resolution photo of the LR pic.  Zoom into the rear wheels. Both tires are off the ground.

I've looked at hi-res images of the photo. I've already said there's a reasonably simple explanation for the appearance. In fact I can think of two completely mundane explanations.

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Not only will you will see there are no tire tracks but there a footprints instead (especially right tire)...

In my last answer I gave you a clue as to why that might be the case.

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...I have also attached a marked photo pointing to the rear axels. One is pointing outwards and the other is much smaller pointing inwards.

Well, I'm looking at the image, and while I accept the wheels don't appear to be parallel, they are both pointing to the same side of the rover. That is, to me it looks like the wheels are pointing the way they should if the vehicle was stopped while cornering. As for why they appear to be non-parallel, I gave you a clue as to why that might be.

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With regards to the rear antenna (the name escapes me) the antenna normally looks flat. ie the wires are flat, horizontal. The only way you can see this design is from below.

Okay, I get what you're talking about. And yeah, I don't know what it is either. Call it the Apollo clothesline or the Apollo D&D d8 if you like. But no. It took me only a few minutes to find this one: https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/AS17-134-20453.jpg

If you load the hi-res version (add the letters HR after the 20453) you can clearly see the octahedron shape.
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Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #142 on: December 16, 2018, 02:11:54 AM »
Hi Peter B,

The left tire is at least thirty percent bigger than the right. How is that possible if the pic is taken from this distance? Download the hi resolution photo of the LR pic.  Zoom into the rear wheels. Both tires are off the ground. Not only will you will see there are no tire tracks but there a footprints instead (especially right tire) I have also attached a marked photo pointing to the rear axels. One is pointing outwards and the other is much smaller pointing inwards. With regards to the rear antenna (the name escapes me) the antenna normally looks flat. ie the wires are flat, horizontal. The only way you can see this design is from below.

Are you quite sure that you are not hunchbacked? Strange how you mentioned his name so early In proceedings and hear you are struggling to understand the effects of optics and perspective. What a coincidence...
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Jason Thompson

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #143 on: December 16, 2018, 03:06:37 AM »
Hi Jason,

In reply #91 I posted two pics in which I have highlighted/numbered similar features. Just look at the three craters in the foreground of each pic and go from there.

That is not answering my questions. The first one was a simple yes/no query and the second requested your reasoning. Repeating a vague suggestion I go and look at what you consider similar features is not a response.

Once again, are you contending that the two images taken in separate locations are actually the same set redressed? Yes or no.

If you continue to play vague semantic games, and to disregard the responses you are given, you will be given short shrift here, at which point I predict you will slip into the standard hoax believer tactic of complaining about your treatment by others in favour of discussing the actual substance of the arguments.
"There's this idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! Bloke who was a professor of dentistry for forty years does NOT have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"  - Dara O'Briain

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #144 on: December 16, 2018, 04:09:57 AM »
Hi OneBigMonkey,

You are comparing the wrong two things. The pics on the right are correct. That is the small crater in front of the larger crater. The pics on the left look like the rock formation I numbered NO 3. I numbered the small crater no.1 in the comparison photos.

Mea culpa. It would help if you actually typed identifying markers instead of using a really broad hand written pen. However it still doesn't help your cause as you can see from this.



I really am not going to waste my time pointing out each and every subtle difference but they are there. All you have is that two similar sized craters made in the same way look similar. The fact is that your diversionary tactic doesn't solve your problem of them being in two completely different locations.

I'm going to echo comments by others. Your approach isn't fooling anyone. There has been a steady stream of wannabe heroes dropping in to this place over the years, many of whom start with your "gee I don't know but maybe" schtick, but all of whom have the attitude of "I know more about this than you" and thinking they are going to walk away shrieking victory to be carried aloft by the other hoax believers. You approach is no different, you're just dressing it up to look more fancy. So far you have been on a gentle but still very obvious gish gallop of "hey look at this", presenting some nebulous and vaguely hinted at notion of fakery and then expecting everyone else to do the legwork. When you get proven wrong you gently shift on to another topic and hope no-one will notice that you ran away. If you think we're all suddenly going to go "By George I think he's got it" you're hopelessly deluded.

Cut the crap. Be honest. Say you don't believe us and say why instead of trying to school us. It really won't work.

Offline molesworth

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #145 on: December 16, 2018, 09:35:13 AM »
The left tire is at least thirty percent bigger than the right. How is that possible if the pic is taken from this distance?
How did you come up with the 30% figure?  The angles, positions and presence of fenders makes measurement a bit tricky, but my best, and most generous estimate is 20%, and more realistically it's about 17%.

I think an appropriate question at this point is, what expertise do you have in photographic analysis, and do you understand (preferably including the maths) the effects of perspective?

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Download the hi resolution photo of the LR pic.  Zoom into the rear wheels. Both tires are off the ground. Not only will you will see there are no tire tracks but there a footprints instead (especially right tire)
I'd disagree that both are off the ground.  Looking closely at the original image, the right wheel appears to be in solid contact with the surface.  Again, the angles make it difficult to properly identify tracks, but careful examination of the original shows partial tracks leading to the parking spot.  There are many, many images in the record for multiple missions which show that the astronauts walked over rover tracks, messing them up - do you think they should have thought "Hey, we want to preserve these tracks for future generations, better not walk on them!"?

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I have also attached a marked photo pointing to the rear axels. One is pointing outwards and the other is much smaller pointing inwards.
Again, this is partly due to angles and perspective, and partly due to the construction of the suspension system.  As you note, the left wheel appears to be off the ground, so the suspension is unloaded.  The information on the suspension, and indeed the whole LRV design and construction, is readily available, and an interesting read (well, to me anyway).

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With regards to the rear antenna (the name escapes me) the antenna normally looks flat. ie the wires are flat, horizontal. The only way you can see this design is from below.
Hmmm, indeed, it makes you wonder...  ;)

One point I'd like a response on - you've mentioned several times that LRO images show something suspicious, yet you seem to avoid presenting this "killer evidence", instead focussing on trivialities such as whether there was adequate visibility from the lander windows.  Isn't it about time you showed us what your real issue is?
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Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #146 on: December 16, 2018, 10:21:10 AM »
Hi Peter B,

The left tire is at least thirty percent bigger than the right. How is that possible if the pic is taken from this distance?

Not by actually taking measurements they aren't. You can't see the entirety of the wheel but you can see the entirety of the fender. In your image photoshop's measuring tool says that fender measures 38.6 v 32.8 - around 15% wider on our left. Meauring from the top of highest point of the fender to the ground we get 109.2 versus 92.7 - again a difference of around 15%. Making actual measurements doesn't support your bare assertion.

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Download the hi resolution photo of the LR pic.  Zoom into the rear wheels. Both tires are off the ground.

Again with the instructions. Why don't you download the high resolution image and show us conclusively that they are off the ground. When I downloaded them and zoomed in, they showed no such thing.

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Not only will you will see there are no tire tracks but there a footprints instead (especially right tire)

So? you do realise there is live TV footage of the rover driving to that point? That if you adjust the brightness levels in the still image you can see the tracks leading there? That there is LRO imagery showing the tire tracks leading to that point? That Indian and Chinese imagery confirms human activity there? That all those footprints might just have obscured any tracks in the loose material around the rover?

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I have also attached a marked photo pointing to the rear axels. One is pointing outwards and the other is much smaller pointing inwards.

Again, so what?

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With regards to the rear antenna (the name escapes me) the antenna normally looks flat. ie the wires are flat, horizontal. The only way you can see this design is from below.

It was above Cernan's camera height. So?

Offline bknight

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #147 on: December 16, 2018, 10:42:52 AM »
Hi Bknight,

I have attached AS17-143-21932. It shows the LR in its final resting spot. They removed the other fender end for whatever reason. The fender is clearly not rounded like people tend to suggest. It is like the "fender" found on the ground in those pictures. I have reattached those photos again. These photos look very much like the fender in AS17-143-21932.

And not that I want to open up another kettle of fish, but take a look at that LR final resting spot photo AS17-143-21932 . It makes no sense. Both back wheels are off the ground.

No both wheels are resting on the soil, there is no discernable regolith that can be seen under the wheels
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One wheel is larger than the other.

Closer is larger, you should know this.
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No tire threads behind the back tires.

From the angle of the image it is difficult to see any tire marks.  Did you consider that the vehicle was backed into position?  No I thought not. You reasoning is indeed two dimensional, as one of the posters sarcastically but correctly indicated.
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And the rear axels are in complete different directions.

The wheels had independent control IIRC.
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And the upper part of the rear right antenna is showing a profile that can only be seen from directly below. I am sure someone will say foreshortening. But if they understand foreshortening, they will know this can't cause these things to happen.
I don't understand your logic "that can only be seen from directly below"  from below would be looking through the vehicle?

Quite honestly your image analysis lacks much and needs much more refinement.
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Offline molesworth

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #148 on: December 16, 2018, 10:45:48 AM »
Hi Peter B,

The left tire is at least thirty percent bigger than the right. How is that possible if the pic is taken from this distance?

Not by actually taking measurements they aren't. You can't see the entirety of the wheel but you can see the entirety of the fender. In your image photoshop's measuring tool says that fender measures 38.6 v 32.8 - around 15% wider on our left. Meauring from the top of highest point of the fender to the ground we get 109.2 versus 92.7 - again a difference of around 15%. Making actual measurements doesn't support your bare assertion.
Thanks OBM - that matches my approx. 17% figure pretty closely (and I may have been erring on the side of caution).

It shows that it takes more than an estimate from just looking at an image to properly determine things like this.  It would take a bit of time to work out the angles, distances etc., but I expect that this difference would be fully explained by perspective.

Perhaps we could ask the op to show us his/her calculations relating to this?
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Offline bknight

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #149 on: December 16, 2018, 11:17:10 AM »
Hi Peter B,

The left tire is at least thirty percent bigger than the right. How is that possible if the pic is taken from this distance? Download the hi resolution photo of the LR pic.  Zoom into the rear wheels. Both tires are off the ground. Not only will you will see there are no tire tracks but there a footprints instead (especially right tire) I have also attached a marked photo pointing to the rear axels. One is pointing outwards and the other is much smaller pointing inwards. With regards to the rear antenna (the name escapes me) the antenna normally looks flat. ie the wires are flat, horizontal. The only way you can see this design is from below.


I did https://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/AS17-143-21932HR.jpg
I still contend that both wheels are in contact with the surface, the right on the shoulder of a small rise,  the left maybe could be argued was off the surface, but my opinion is it in contact with the surface.  30% larger? hogwash perhaps 1 cm, but that is about all.  jr how do you measure it 30%?

Guys I'm looking for the image of the truck in front of a barn zooming in and out to show jr  perspective, but I can't find it.  Anyone have it saved?

Finally with regards to your "treatment"  if it walks like duck, quacks like a duck, it is a duck. 
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan