Author Topic: Delta IV launch question  (Read 22070 times)

Offline ka9q

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Re: Delta IV launch question
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2014, 06:34:14 PM »
You're quite right, I'd forgotten about that parking lot. In my defense, I can argue that those cars belonged to NASA/Air Force/ULA/whoever employees, not the general public (for the most part).

I assume they were all compensated?

But I think they still have a perfect record in protecting human lives.

The possibility of a failure immediately after liftoff is what keeps launch vehicle and range safety people up at night. The recent Antares failure is a perfect example; I'm actually surprised the pad damage wasn't more severe. It seems to have fallen just slightly southeast of the pad. I quickly noticed that before the launch there were four lightning protection masts; just after, only two.

Thank our lucky invisible daytime lunar stars that we never had a S-IC failure in, what, 13 flights?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 06:55:24 PM by ka9q »

Offline ka9q

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Re: Delta IV launch question
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2014, 06:52:05 PM »
Yes.  And for every iota of effort toward, "The vehicle must explode completely when told to," there are two iotas of, "Ordnance on your rocket may not explode prematurely or pose a hazard to integration and ground crews."
I'm no ordnance expert, but I'm rather amazed at its reliability on spacecraft and launch vehicles. They're almost boring: they fire when you want them to, and they don't fire when you don't want them to.

I know they go out of their way to ensure this with redundant initiators, firing units, det cords, dedicated batteries, isolated wiring and the like, but it's still quite an achievement. I think Curiosity fired over 70 pyros in its landing sequence, and a failure of just one could have ended it all right there.

When I first heard that explosives are often used just to open a valve, I almost wondered if my leg was being pulled. But many valves and the like only have to open once, and since long experience has shown pyros to be very reliable, they're still used despite the obvious hazards, costs and testing difficulties.

I know there have been failures, e.g., during the launch of the Skylab space station when second-plane separation failed after S-IC/S-II staging. But that seems to have been more of a systems-level slipup than an actual failure of the ordnance itself.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 06:56:17 PM by ka9q »

Offline BazBear

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Re: Delta IV launch question
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2014, 06:58:01 PM »
You're quite right, I'd forgotten about that parking lot. In my defense, I can argue that those cars belonged to NASA/Air Force/ULA/whoever employees, not the general public (for the most part).
I'll admit to nitpicking. :)

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I assume they were all compensated?
I'd have to assume that, too.

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But I think they still have a perfect record in protecting human lives.
Indeed.

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The possibility of a failure immediately after liftoff is what keeps launch vehicle and range safety people up at night. The recent Antares failure is a perfect example; I'm actually surprised the pad damage wasn't more severe. It seems to have fallen just slightly southeast of the pad. I quickly noticed that before the launch there were four lightning protection masts; just after, only two.

Thank the invisible daytime lunar stars that we never had a S-IC failure in, what, 13 flights?
The Soviet N1 launch failure on July 3, 1969 gives us some idea what an early-in-flight S-1C failure might have looked like, so I'm with you on thanking those stars.
"It's true you know. In space, no one can hear you scream like a little girl." - Mark Watney, protagonist of The Martian by Andy Weir

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Delta IV launch question
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2014, 02:51:13 AM »
The Soviet N1 launch failure on July 3, 1969 gives us some idea what an early-in-flight S-1C failure might have looked like, so I'm with you on thanking those stars.

Not a pretty sight for rocket enthusiasts

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Offline Peter B

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Re: Delta IV launch question
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2014, 08:38:31 AM »
...during the launch of the Skylab space station when second-plane separation failed after S-IC/S-II staging. But that seems to have been more of a systems-level slipup than an actual failure of the ordnance itself.

Could you discuss this event in a bit more detail, please.

That is, I already know (though I don't remember where I found out) that the S-IC/S-II interstage failed to separate for the launch of Skylab, and I know (from the Apollo Flight Journal) that normally an interstage separation failure meant an automatic immediate abort. I also know that the abort was overridden for Skylab, rather than being inhibited ahead of time.

But I'd be curious to know any background information about exactly what happened and why, and how Mission Control got around it.

Thanks very much.

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Delta IV launch question
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2014, 12:38:36 PM »
...during the launch of the Skylab space station when second-plane separation failed after S-IC/S-II staging. But that seems to have been more of a systems-level slipup than an actual failure of the ordnance itself.

Could you discuss this event in a bit more detail, please.

That is, I already know (though I don't remember where I found out) that the S-IC/S-II interstage failed to separate for the launch of Skylab, and I know (from the Apollo Flight Journal) that normally an interstage separation failure meant an automatic immediate abort. I also know that the abort was overridden for Skylab, rather than being inhibited ahead of time.

But I'd be curious to know any background information about exactly what happened and why, and how Mission Control got around it.

Thanks very much.


A long and detailed report here

http://klabs.org/richcontent/Reports/Failure_Reports/Skylab/Skylab_Report.htm

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CHAPTER X

SIGNIFICANT FINDINGS AND CORRECTIVE ACTIONS

Significant Findings

    The launch anomaly that occurred at approximately 63 seconds after lift-off was a failure of the meteoroid shield of the OWS.
    The SAS-2 wing tie downs were broken by the action of the meteoroid shield at 63 seconds. Subsequent loss of the SAS-2 wing was caused by retro-rocket plume impingement on the partially deployed wing at 593 seconds.
    The failure of the S-II interstage adapter to separate in flight was probably due to damage to the ordnance separation device by falling debris from the meteoroid shield.
    The most probable cause of the failure of the meteoroid shield was internal pressurization of its auxiliary tunnel. This internal pressurization acted to force the forward end of the tunnel and meteoroid shield away from the OWS and into the supersonic air stream. The resulting forces tore the meteoroid shield from the OWS.
    The pressurization of the auxiliary tunnel resulted from the admission of high pressure air into the tunnel through several openings in the aft end. These openings were: (1) an Imperfect fit of the tunnel with the aft fairing; (2) an open boot seal between the tunnel and the tank surface; and (3) open stringers on the aft skirt under the tunnel.
    The venting analysis for the tunnel was predicated on a completely sealed aft end. The openings in the aft end of the tunnel thus resulted from a failure to communicate this critical design feature among aerodynamics, structural design, and manufacturing personnel.
    Other marginal aspects of the design of the meteoroid shield which, when taken together, could also result in failure during launch are:

    a. The proximity of the MS forward reinforcing angle to the air stream

    b. The existence of gaps between the OWS and the forward ends of the MS

    c. The light spring force of the auxiliary tunnel frames

    d. The aerodynamic crushing loads on the auxiliary tunnel frames in flight

    e. The action of the torsion-bar actuated swing links applying an outward radial force to the MS

    f The inherent longitudinal flexibility of the shield assembly

    g. The non-uniform expansion of the OWS tank when pressurized

    h. The inherent difficulty in rigging for flight and associated uncertain tension loads in the shield.
    The failure to recognize many of these marginal design features through six years of analysis, design and test was due, in part, to a presumption that the meteoroid shield would be "tight to the tank" and "structurally integral with the S-IVB tank" as set forth in the design criteria.
    Organizationally, the meteoroid shield was treated as a structural subsystem. The absence of a designated "project engineer" for the shield contributed to the lack of effective integration of the various structural, aerodynamic, aeroelastic, test, fabrication, and assembly aspects of the MS system.
    The overall management system used for Skylab was essentially the same as that developed in the Apollo program. This system was fully operational for Skylab; no conflicts or inconsistencies were found in the records of the management reviews. Nonetheless, the significance of the aerodynamic loads on the MS during launch was not revealed by the extensive review process.
    No evidence was found to indicate that the design, development and testing of the meteoroid shield were compromised by limitations of funds or time. The quality of workmanship applied to the MS was adequate for its intended purpose.
    Given the basic view. that the meteoroid shield was to be completely in contact with and perform as structurally integral with the S-IVB tank, the testing emphasis m ordnance performance and shield deployment was appropriate.
    Engineering and management personnel on Skylab, on the part of both contractor and government, were available from the prior Saturn development and were highly experienced and adequate in number.
    The failure to recognize these design deficiencies of the meteoroid shield, as well as to communicate within the project the critical nature of its proper venting, must therefore be attributed to an absence of sound engineering judgment and alert engineering leadership concerning this particular system over a considerable period of time.
Corrective Actions

    If the back-up OWS or a similar spacecraft is to be flown in the future, a possible course of action is to omit the meteorold shield, suitably coat the OWS for thermal control, and accept the meteoroid protection afforded by the OWS tank walls. if, on the other hand, additional protection should be necessary, the Board is attracted to the concept of a, fixed, nondeployable shield.
    To reduce the probability of separation failures such as occurred at the S-II interstage Second Separation Plane, both linear shaped charges should be detonated simultaneously from both ends. In addition, all other similar ordnance applications should be reviewed for a similar failure mode.
    "Structural" systems that have to move or deploy, or that involve other mechanisms, equipment or components for their operation, should not be considered solely as a piece of structure nor be the exclusive responsibility of a structures organization.
    Complex, multi-disciplinary systems such as the meteoroid shield should have a designated project engineer who is responsible for all aspects of analysis, design, fabrication, test and assembly.

Observations on the Management System

The Board found no evidence that the design deficiencies of the meteoroid shield were the result of, or were masked by, the content and processes of the management system that were used for Skylab. On the contrary, the rigor, detail, and thoroughness of the system are doubtless necessary for a program of this magnitude. At the same time. as a cautionary note for the future, it is emphasized that management must always be alert to the potential hazards of its systems and take care that an attention to rigor, detail and thoroughness does not inject an undue emphasis on formalism, documentation, and visibility in detail. Such an emphasis can submerge the concerned individual and depress the role of the intuitive engineer or analyst. It will always be of importance to achieve a cross-fertilization and broadened experience of engineers in analysis. design, test or operations. Positive steps must always be taken to assure that engineers become familiar with actual hardware, develop an intuitive understanding of computer-developed results, and make productive use of flight data in this learning process. The experienced "chief engineer," who can spend most of his time in the subtle integration of all elements of the system under his purview, free of administrative and managerial duties, can also be a major asset to an engineering organization.

It seems that NASA didn't learn from this, hence, 12 years later, the Challenger accident.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 12:52:12 PM by smartcooky »
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Delta IV launch question
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2014, 03:30:05 PM »
Smartcooky beat me to it with the facts.  NTRS is still massively broken after the decommissioning of CASI and the subsequent breakage of many links to technical reports.

*cracks knuckles*

This is my special area of (somewhat dated) expertise.  My work on the Delta family of launch vehicles (chiefly the Delta III but also backward toward the Delta II and forward toward the Delta IV) was the payload-bearing structures and their relevant coupled-load analysis and separation sequence analysis.  The half-dozen or so payload-attach fittings (PAF) for those vehicles make special use of pyrotechnical and ingenious mechanical solutions.

Was the staging anomaly on Skylab 1 the failure of a single pyrotechnic device?  Yes.  Normally we design these assemblies with redundant pyros so that the failure of any one device doesn't fail the system.  Here they didn't.  A single device was meant to sever all the straps holding the structures together.  Any mechanical or thermal damage to that single device meant that the detonation front would be interrupted at the point of damage, which is what occurred on that flight.  Systemic redundancy was limited to multiple detonation initiations of the single device, implemented electronically but not mechanically.  Well, sort of.  The electrical connectors that pass the "fire" command (both primary and redundant) to the device separate after less than a centimeter of separation has occurred between the interstage and the second stage, and only at the point where the connectors are mounted on the skirt.  This means the interstage can partially separate while defeating the electrical redundancy.  This is  considered a component-level design factor, not a system-level design factor.

In the sense that this was dependent on electrical properties of the stage design and staging sequence design, this was a system-level design failure.  The designers should have foreseen that mechanical damage to the single pyro -- which had a massive mechanical extent in the overall vehicle design -- could result in partial separation of the interstage, which could defeat the electrical-only redundancy program.  A better design using the existing hardware would have initiated the circumferential pyro detonation simultaneously at both ends.  This would have meant that a single discontinuity would have been perfectly sustainable; the interstage joint would have to be hit two or more times to result in partial pyro detonation.

The system failure argument incorporating the micrometeoroid shield is valid but weak.  Clearly there was a failure to communicate design constraints between design teams, and that's what I did for the Delta LV team back in the day.  It's weak because specific causes of debris damage aren't important to LV stage designers.  You design launch vehicles (especially those with cryogenic propellants) to tolerate impact damage from any source, including from unknown sources.  Literally anything forward of the point in question can break off and slam into the launch vehicle with supersonic force.

And yes, Challenger.  The STS design was fully head-in-sand about this.  By the early 1970s it was already known that launch vehicles were likely to suffer minor impact damage during boost.  Modern launch vehicles had already been adapted to this fact.  The Saturn V, by the early 1970s, was no longer a modern launch vehicle in this respect.  It could be made resilient in the face of this particular failure by the modification I outlined above.  But as this was the last flight of the Saturn V, that wasn't really a consideration.  STS vacillated about this, with the knowledge that the orbiter TPS was especially vulnerable to impact damage and the naive expectation that debris shedding could be controlled with additional engineering.

Nope.

Payload attachment strategies today typically use clampband designs.  The payload mates to the circular adapter structure in such a way that the shared circular "lip" is a V-shaped arrangement that accepts the V-shaped concave channel of a strong band going around the circumference.  At 0-degree and 180-degree radials, the band is held in place and tensioned by studs that are severed by pyro cutters.  Only one of the two cutters has to succeed in order for the clampband to release, and since they are at diametrically opposed points on the vehicle, the chances of them both being damaged by impacts is minimized.

Full-race linear shaped charges these days are permitted only in a few places, such as payload fairing separation.  Since the payload fairing is the most forward structure, it isn't likely to be damaged mechanically.  Gemini's "angry alligator" showed the problems with clampband methods for separating payload fairings, but a few designs still use(d) it (e.g., SpaceX Falcon 1).

But back to stage joinery.  Rocket stage joints have to accept bending-moment loads on the order of 80,000 lbf-in.  This requires them to be especially robust in tension around the perimeter of stage.  This further requires separation devices also to be located near the vehicle skin and be susceptible to debris impact damage.  Newer interstage joint designs make more extensive use of fuze pins and other simply-frangible structures to ensure both sufficient strength to withstand flight loads and reliability at separation.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Delta IV launch question
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2014, 04:02:53 PM »
...normally an interstage separation failure meant an automatic immediate abort.

For a manned mission, yes.  Because the structural and thermal effects of carrying the interstage could mean an eventual catastrophic failure from which a safe abort would be problematic.  Aborting during nominal flight was considered more survivable and the safe thing to do in this contingency.

For an unmanned mission you don't mind a catastrophic failure so much during second-stage flight.  Only property would be destroyed.  Hence you can fly more risky safety margins.

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But I'd be curious to know any background information about exactly what happened and why, and how Mission Control got around it.

To summarize the voluminous information above, debris from Skylab's disintegrating shield damaged the separation pyro.  That was traced to insufficient integration engineering.

Structurally there's little problem with leaving the interstage attached.  The resulting vehicle is heavier and requires longer to reach the target velocity, but that's still way within the second stage's capacity.  Ostensibly a hardover on the J-2 engines might have forced contact between the nozzle and the interstage, but that would have created other problems anyway.  The worst effect was that the interstage collected and concentrated exhaust gases that flow up around the nozzle.  That heated up the elements of the stage that were just behind the aft shield, but not to a dangerous extent.
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Delta IV launch question
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2014, 04:21:31 PM »
When I first heard that explosives are often used just to open a valve, I almost wondered if my leg was being pulled. But many valves and the like only have to open once, and since long experience has shown pyros to be very reliable, they're still used despite the obvious hazards, costs and testing difficulties.

Consider also that some of the valves in question require considerable actuating force.  Some are meant to hold back pressurized LH2 or LOX -- rather small molecules that require considerably tight fits for the valve components.  Permissible leak rates could be very small.  The combination of very tight mechanical tolerances and very high upstream pressures and very high eventual flow rates means it could require an enormous torque to open or close the valves.  You can either try to apply one of the various fluid-power systems such as pneumatics and hydraulics.  Or, depending on location and reliability constraints, you could us a pyro device.  It requires only wiring, which is more robust than fluid-power piping.

The testing is still a problem.  No ground-test machine exists to faithfully simulate the shock effects of pyro detonations on a payload or other structure, which can be prodigious.  So the only way to do it is to fasten the payload to a test fixture that closely resembles the actual payload fitting, install actual pyros, back way the heck up, and set them off.  Then you see if your satellite boots up afterward.  And yes, I have seen spacecraft appendages fall to the test floor when the "simulated" sep pyros fire.

But pyros are dangerous.  Even with today's containment structures, you don't want to be anywhere near them when they go off, which is why installing and arming them on launch vehicles and/or payloads involves a bunch of grim-faced Air Force guys watching closely every move you make.  The buttload of paperwork required to clear the pyro designs is phenomenal.
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Offline Allan F

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Re: Delta IV launch question
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2014, 04:56:48 PM »
Your reference to Challenger - I suppose you mean Columbia?

Edit: And aborting an unmanned mission versus a vehicle failure - the payload would be lost anyway, I suppose. So an abort with vehicle destruction would only be necessary if a major course deviation occured. Any orbit, I suppose, is better than self-destruct.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 05:00:51 PM by Allan F »
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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Delta IV launch question
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2014, 05:29:33 PM »
No, Challenger, which was brought down by debris striking the orbiter during initial boost.  Happily the crew completed their mission before the catastrophe, but the tragedy is that we've known literally for decades that you can't rely on controlling the debris streaming back from a launch vehicle.
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Offline Allan F

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Re: Delta IV launch question
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2014, 06:26:12 PM »
No, Challenger, which was brought down by debris striking the orbiter during initial boost.  Happily the crew completed their mission before the catastrophe, but the tragedy is that we've known literally for decades that you can't rely on controlling the debris streaming back from a launch vehicle.

Challenger exploded during take-off due to faulty o-rings in the booster. Columbia disintegrated during re-entry due to debris strike during take-off which compromised the thermal protection.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Delta IV launch question
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2014, 07:18:18 PM »
Er, yeah, Columbia;D
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Offline Glom

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Re: Delta IV launch question
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2014, 02:00:06 AM »
We need another T-shirt here.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Delta IV launch question
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2014, 10:52:23 AM »
Indeed, I was having an entire day where I was constantly thinking one thing and saying/writing another.  I finally just went home to pet the cat.  I mean the dog.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams