Author Topic: Orlando mass shooting  (Read 24010 times)

Offline LunarOrbit

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Orlando mass shooting
« on: June 12, 2016, 08:07:50 PM »
I’m sitting here watching the news about the terrible shooting at a “gay club” in Orlando, and I want to get some of the thoughts out of my head.

I’m not a religious person, but I’ve always liked the “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” philosophy, and I believe that if there is a God he/she put gay people on this Earth in order to test our ability to follow it. If you are the kind of person who thinks it is okay to discriminate or act violently against gay people based on your religious beliefs, then you are failing God’s test.

I’m amazed by how easy it is for some religious people to justify hateful actions against other people. They can even manage to justify mass murder. Somehow, in their mind, murder is a less serious sin than loving someone. It makes no sense to me.

I don’t care if someone is gay since it has no bearing on my life. Let them live their lives openly and free to do the same things that you are free to do. You don’t have the right to impose your beliefs on them. People should not have to live in hiding, afraid that they might be murdered simply for being different.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline Glom

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Re: Orlando mass shooting
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2016, 09:00:25 PM »
Good thought. I've been struggling to think of something to add. It has been a disturbing evening.

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Orlando mass shooting
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2016, 09:25:52 PM »
Thanks, Glom. It was something I had been trying to put into words in my head all afternoon. Writing it here in the forum helped.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline revmic

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Re: Orlando mass shooting
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2016, 09:38:33 PM »
Preach. But there is no reason in the mind of a mass murderer, their target could be gays, Christians, students, anyone. Maybe those of us blessed with healthy minds should think about mental health in the States and why we have such intensely violent people.
Where knowledge is a duty, ignorance is a crime - Tom Paine

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Orlando mass shooting
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2016, 10:09:46 PM »
I don't think we can pass all cases like this off as mental illness, especially if it turns out he planned his attack in advance.

It's not just the mass murderers that I'm thinking of right now either. I'm almost as bothered by the people who will refuse to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple as I am by the guy who killed at least 50 people today. They are both using their religion, which is supposed to be about peace and love, to justify their hate and discrimination. Like I said, I feel like they are failing God's ethics test.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline Halcyon Dayz, FCD

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Re: Orlando mass shooting
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2016, 02:19:37 AM »
"My life sucks, everybody else is going to pay for it." seems to be a recurring theme.
Hatred is a cancer upon the world.
It rots the mind and blackens the heart.

Offline gillianren

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Re: Orlando mass shooting
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2016, 02:32:48 AM »
I'm so tired, so very tired, of these things getting blamed on the mentally ill.  We are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than the perpetrators; sometimes, mass shooters are clearly mentally ill, and, yes, we need a safety net that will catch them before people die from another's mental illness.  But who's protecting us from you people?
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Offline Al Johnston

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Re: Orlando mass shooting
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2016, 06:44:03 AM »
Sadly, one does not get far suggesting the problem is anything to do with guns...
"Cheer up!" they said. "It could be worse!" they said.
So I did.
And it was.

Offline revmic

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Re: Orlando mass shooting
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2016, 09:36:38 AM »
I'm so tired, so very tired, of these things getting blamed on the mentally ill.  We are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than the perpetrators; sometimes, mass shooters are clearly mentally ill, and, yes, we need a safety net that will catch them before people die from another's mental illness.  But who's protecting us from you people?

Do you think that mass murder is an option for a mentally healthy person? And who are 'you people' and what actions/beliefs do they/we endorse?
Where knowledge is a duty, ignorance is a crime - Tom Paine

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Orlando mass shooting
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2016, 12:00:35 PM »
I'm so tired, so very tired, of these things getting blamed on the mentally ill.  We are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than the perpetrators; sometimes, mass shooters are clearly mentally ill, and, yes, we need a safety net that will catch them before people die from another's mental illness

Are you really suggesting that someone who goes into a nightclub and massacres 50 people because he didn't like the thought of two men kissing, with a history of domestic violence, controlling behaviour, steroid abuse and who, in the words of his ex-wife, was unstable is mentally healthy? Seriously?

But who's protecting us from you people?
Sounds like a pretty large chip on your shoulder to me.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline gillianren

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Re: Orlando mass shooting
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2016, 12:01:02 PM »
I'm so tired, so very tired, of these things getting blamed on the mentally ill.  We are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than the perpetrators; sometimes, mass shooters are clearly mentally ill, and, yes, we need a safety net that will catch them before people die from another's mental illness.  But who's protecting us from you people?

Do you think that mass murder is an option for a mentally healthy person? And who are 'you people' and what actions/beliefs do they/we endorse?

If studies of the psychology of mass murderers shows anything, yes, it is.  The average mass shooter does not show any signs of mental illness; the only way you can make them do so is to assume that willingness to kill lots of people is in and of itself a mental illness that shares no symptom profile with any other condition.  And by "you people," I mean "the mentally healthy," who kill the mentally ill at a rate considerably higher than the one at which mentally ill people kill the mentally healthy.  The people we are a most danger to is ourselves.
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

"Conspiracy theories are an irresistible labour-saving device in the face of complexity."  --Henry Louis Gates

Offline bknight

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Re: Orlando mass shooting
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2016, 07:25:05 PM »

And by "you people," I mean "the mentally healthy," who kill the mentally ill at a rate considerably higher than the one at which mentally ill people kill the mentally healthy.
What metric do you base this statement on?
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Offline revmic

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Re: Orlando mass shooting
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2016, 09:01:57 PM »
I'm so tired, so very tired, of these things getting blamed on the mentally ill.  We are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than the perpetrators; sometimes, mass shooters are clearly mentally ill, and, yes, we need a safety net that will catch them before people die from another's mental illness.  But who's protecting us from you people?

Do you think that mass murder is an option for a mentally healthy person? And who are 'you people' and what actions/beliefs do they/we endorse?

If studies of the psychology of mass murderers shows anything, yes, it is.  The average mass shooter does not show any signs of mental illness; the only way you can make them do so is to assume that willingness to kill lots of people is in and of itself a mental illness that shares no symptom profile with any other condition.  And by "you people," I mean "the mentally healthy," who kill the mentally ill at a rate considerably higher than the one at which mentally ill people kill the mentally healthy.  The people we are a most danger to is ourselves.

Am I correct in assuming you are distinguishing between mental illness and personality disorders? DSM-5 has 'removed the arbitrary boundaries between personality disorders and mental disorders'(link below). Of course no one in the thread mentioned 'mental illness' at all, except LO in passing, not blaming. Why we have so many sufferers of disorders (less tiresome terminology I hope?) leading to extreme violence is what I am wondering about

http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Personality%20Disorders%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

(Also saw on another thread that you had some wonderful news, I wish you and your family all the best)
Where knowledge is a duty, ignorance is a crime - Tom Paine

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Orlando mass shooting
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2016, 10:08:17 PM »
Do you think that mass murder is an option for a mentally healthy person?

Was President Truman a mentally healthy person when he authorized dropping nuclear bombs on Japan? What about the pilot and bombardier of the Enola Gay? I believe they were. We can play word games over what is considered murder and what isn't, but sane people justify homicide (to themselves, at least) all the time. Sometimes we call them heroes, and sometimes we call them monsters, it's just a matter of perspective.

A person acting out religiously inspired plans to kill people is going to have a hard time convincing me they were mentally unfit at the time... not without admitting to me that their god is just a delusion resulting from years of indoctrination and brainwashing.

I'm so tired, so very tired, of these things getting blamed on the mentally ill.  We are more likely to be the victims of violent crime than the perpetrators; sometimes, mass shooters are clearly mentally ill, and, yes, we need a safety net that will catch them before people die from another's mental illness

Are you really suggesting that someone who goes into a nightclub and massacres 50 people because he didn't like the thought of two men kissing, with a history of domestic violence, controlling behaviour, steroid abuse and who, in the words of his ex-wife, was unstable is mentally healthy? Seriously?

It depends. Like I said above, people justify murder to themselves all the time. Is it mentally unhealthy to do something if you believe it is what God wants you to do? A lot of men use religion to justify their domestic violence and controlling behaviour, so you're not really convincing me he was mentally unhealthy and not just acting on religious motives.

Quote
But who's protecting us from you people?
Sounds like a pretty large chip on your shoulder to me.

I think Gillianren's comment is a fair one. People who are considered mentally healthy can be incredibly cruel.

I suffered from depression, anxiety, and low self esteem for pretty much all of high school and into my thirties. I blame much of it on the high school environment which was just plain soul crushing, and it was probably tame by today's standards.

How many kids start high school mentally healthy but come out suffering from depression, eating disorders, low self esteem, suicidal or violent thoughts, etc. after enduring four years of abuse from other allegedly normal kids? How many kids have committed suicide because of it?


It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)

Offline LunarOrbit

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Re: Orlando mass shooting
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2016, 10:17:42 PM »
Of course no one in the thread mentioned 'mental illness' at all, except LO in passing, not blaming.

Wait a second... let's get something straight here.

The first mention of mental illness was by you.

But there is no reason in the mind of a mass murderer, their target could be gays, Christians, students, anyone. Maybe those of us blessed with healthy minds should think about mental health in the States and why we have such intensely violent people.

I responded that it wasn't fair to say all cases like this are the result of mental illness.

I don't think we can pass all cases like this off as mental illness, especially if it turns out he planned his attack in advance.
It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth.
I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth.
I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- Neil Armstrong (1930-2012)