Author Topic: Request for peer review of my flat Earth disproofs  (Read 24310 times)

Offline Al Johnston

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Re: Request for peer review of my flat Earth disproofs
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2015, 05:48:08 PM »
As Alfred Russel Wallace's experience showed, Flat-Earthers are remarkably good at not seeing anything they don't want to...
"Cheer up!" they said. "It could be worse!" they said.
So I did.
And it was.

Offline Gazpar

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Re: Request for peer review of my flat Earth disproofs
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2015, 06:09:27 PM »
As Alfred Russel Wallace's experience showed, Flat-Earthers are remarkably good at not seeing anything they don't want to...
This is a letter from the John Hampden directed to Russel`s wife soon after he lost the weager:
Quote
"Mrs. Wallace,—Madam, if your infernal thief of a husband is brought home some day on a hurdle, with every bone in his head smashed to pulp, you will know the reason. Do you tell him from me he is a lying infernal thief, and as sure as his name is Wallace he never dies in his bed.
"You must be a miserable wretch to be obliged to live with a convicted felon. Do not think or let him think I have done with him.

"John Hampden."

The worst thing is that flat earthers until today ignore the bedford experiment refutation and this letter in particular. They still come up with the same useless curvature calculation made by Samuel Rowboatham after it has been refuted a thousand times since we know he used a calculation that involves 0 height from the observers when that is not the case.

Rather than look for a visible curvature of the earth from altitude, I suggest measuring the angle between the local vertical and the horizon. This decreases from 90 degrees rather rapidly with altitude as shown by the "beam tilts" built into many broadcasting antennas on tall towers.

A UHF TV broadcast antenna pattern is typically a flat horizontal disc. The frequency is high enough (and the antenna tall enough) that the disc is very thin, ie., the antenna is very directional in the vertical plane. If the disc were exactly perpendicular to the tower, much of the radiated power would miss the earth and fly uselessly into space. So these antennas are usually constructed with a downward beam tilt.

As an example, the PBS TV station where I interned in the 1970s now has a digital transmitter on RF channel 29 (virtual channel 67). The antenna is 309 meters above average nearby terrain and 464 meters above sea level. It has an electrical downtilt of 0.75 degrees. I haven't done the calculations but I'm pretty sure they're consistent with an earth radius of approximately 6378 km...




I have been reading about that. FEs claim that GPS doesnt exist and is all ground based just like LORAN was:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORAN

The thing is; Flat earthers ignore that LORAN worked with sky waves and ground waves that need to take into account earths curvature just like the example you gave. The higher the antenna is, the farther the radio signal will be since there is less ground between it.

But lets suppose the earth was flat. Shouldnt radio signals reach everywhere in the world since there is not ground to stop them? Radio towers would not need to be built very tall since there is no horizon. That would mean it is possible to see other cities thousands of miles away with a radio telescope.
Of course, the atmosphere could effect radio waves.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 06:17:52 PM by Gazpar »

Offline ka9q

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Re: Request for peer review of my flat Earth disproofs
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2015, 04:01:45 AM »
I have been reading about that. FEs claim that GPS doesnt exist and is all ground based just like LORAN was:
The problem with that claim is that you can point directional GPS antennas at the sky and see that the signals are coming from discrete, slowly moving points whose locations are accurately given by mathematical models that assume an ellipsoidal earth of a very specific mass, shape and size.

Also, GPS transmits on the L-band at 1575.42 MHz, far above the ionosphere's critical frequency so it passes right through it from space. LORAN-C transmits (or transmitted, in the US) at only 100 kHz, well below the AM broadcast band (535-1705 kHz in the USA) and far below the ionosphere's critical frequency so it is reflected back toward earth. Because of the much longer wavelength and the somewhat unpredictable, non-line-of-sight path, LORAN-C was much less accurate than GPS.

Quote
Shouldnt radio signals reach everywhere in the world since there is not ground to stop them? Radio towers would not need to be built very tall since there is no horizon. That would mean it is possible to see other cities thousands of miles away with a radio telescope.
Yup.
Quote
Of course, the atmosphere could effect radio waves.
And it does. Most analyses of tropospheric radio wave propagation model the earth as having 4/3 its actual radius to account for atmospheric refraction. The same thing happens at optical wavelengths, so sunset/sunrise appears to occur when the sun is actually slightly below the horizon. If the earth were flat, refraction as well as geometry would keep the sun from ever appearing to set anywhere.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 04:03:55 AM by ka9q »

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Request for peer review of my flat Earth disproofs
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2015, 05:18:20 AM »
As Alfred Russel Wallace's experience showed, Flat-Earthers are remarkably good at not seeing anything they don't want to...
This is a letter from the John Hampden directed to Russel`s wife soon after he lost the weager:
Quote
"Mrs. Wallace,—Madam, if your infernal thief of a husband is brought home some day on a hurdle, with every bone in his head smashed to pulp, you will know the reason. Do you tell him from me he is a lying infernal thief, and as sure as his name is Wallace he never dies in his bed.
"You must be a miserable wretch to be obliged to live with a convicted felon. Do not think or let him think I have done with him.

"John Hampden."

Blimey....was he an ancestor of The Blunder???
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Peter B

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Re: Request for peer review of my flat Earth disproofs
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2015, 06:53:10 AM »
I have run into a lot of flat-Earthers lately. Along the way I have posted 16 illustrations and accompanying arguments on Photobucket. (I hope it's not as slow for you guys as it is for me on my portable wi-fi hotspot.)

I humbly request that anyone who is interested review as many of them as you like, and point out anything that you think should be changed. I don't mind PMs if you feel that would be warranted. In your responses, please include the number of the disproof along with your suggestions. This will make it easier for others to keep track of which ones have gotten feedback, in case they want to choose some others to look at.

http://s813.photobucket.com/user/astrobrant2/library/Disproofs%20of%20Flat%20Earth?sort=6&page=1

Clear skies,
Brant

I note that pictures 2 and 8 show different views of illumination of the Earth as required by FE theory at equinox and southern summer solstice.

Just a thought, but is there a way to show how the Earth would be illuminated at a few other times of the year?

Ideally, would it be possible to create an animation showing the illumination of the FE over a 24 hour period for a bunch of dates through the year - say, on the first day of each month of the year? (Even better would be an animation showing it continuously for the whole year, but I assume that would be tricky to do.)

I'm currently finding it hard to visualise how the night-time shadow must be required to move around the Earth in a 24 hour period, particularly around the solstices. Just looking at these animations must surely raise some questions in some doubters' minds...

Offline Gazpar

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Re: Request for peer review of my flat Earth disproofs
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2015, 07:55:42 AM »
I have been reading about that. FEs claim that GPS doesnt exist and is all ground based just like LORAN was:
The problem with that claim is that you can point directional GPS antennas at the sky and see that the signals are coming from discrete, slowly moving points whose locations are accurately given by mathematical models that assume an ellipsoidal earth of a very specific mass, shape and size.

Also, GPS transmits on the L-band at 1575.42 MHz, far above the ionosphere's critical frequency so it passes right through it from space. LORAN-C transmits (or transmitted, in the US) at only 100 kHz, well below the AM broadcast band (535-1705 kHz in the USA) and far below the ionosphere's critical frequency so it is reflected back toward earth. Because of the much longer wavelength and the somewhat unpredictable, non-line-of-sight path, LORAN-C was much less accurate than GPS.

Quote
Shouldnt radio signals reach everywhere in the world since there is not ground to stop them? Radio towers would not need to be built very tall since there is no horizon. That would mean it is possible to see other cities thousands of miles away with a radio telescope.
Yup.
Quote
Of course, the atmosphere could effect radio waves.
And it does. Most analyses of tropospheric radio wave propagation model the earth as having 4/3 its actual radius to account for atmospheric refraction. The same thing happens at optical wavelengths, so sunset/sunrise appears to occur when the sun is actually slightly below the horizon. If the earth were flat, refraction as well as geometry would keep the sun from ever appearing to set anywhere.
Well, the sun cannot set or rise in a flat earth since it is 3000 miles up so you are right.
Here is a 3D model of it:


In this Image you can see the sun as a dot in the right above the edge of the earth.


In this one you see the sun from the other edge.
It never sets and If it did, there would not be timezones.

Or it would not be possible for the sun to be under the clouds:


There is so much wrong with this idea of flat earth...

As Alfred Russel Wallace's experience showed, Flat-Earthers are remarkably good at not seeing anything they don't want to...
This is a letter from the John Hampden directed to Russel`s wife soon after he lost the weager:
Quote
"Mrs. Wallace,—Madam, if your infernal thief of a husband is brought home some day on a hurdle, with every bone in his head smashed to pulp, you will know the reason. Do you tell him from me he is a lying infernal thief, and as sure as his name is Wallace he never dies in his bed.
"You must be a miserable wretch to be obliged to live with a convicted felon. Do not think or let him think I have done with him.

"John Hampden."

Blimey....was he an ancestor of The Blunder???
Maybe.
Is he a flat earther?  ;D

I have run into a lot of flat-Earthers lately. Along the way I have posted 16 illustrations and accompanying arguments on Photobucket. (I hope it's not as slow for you guys as it is for me on my portable wi-fi hotspot.)

I humbly request that anyone who is interested review as many of them as you like, and point out anything that you think should be changed. I don't mind PMs if you feel that would be warranted. In your responses, please include the number of the disproof along with your suggestions. This will make it easier for others to keep track of which ones have gotten feedback, in case they want to choose some others to look at.

http://s813.photobucket.com/user/astrobrant2/library/Disproofs%20of%20Flat%20Earth?sort=6&page=1

Clear skies,
Brant

I note that pictures 2 and 8 show different views of illumination of the Earth as required by FE theory at equinox and southern summer solstice.

Just a thought, but is there a way to show how the Earth would be illuminated at a few other times of the year?

Ideally, would it be possible to create an animation showing the illumination of the FE over a 24 hour period for a bunch of dates through the year - say, on the first day of each month of the year? (Even better would be an animation showing it continuously for the whole year, but I assume that would be tricky to do.)

I'm currently finding it hard to visualise how the night-time shadow must be required to move around the Earth in a 24 hour period, particularly around the solstices. Just looking at these animations must surely raise some questions in some doubters' minds...
Flat earthers argue the sun is a spotlight.
I think I have what you ask:


Here is a test of that.
This is a picture of the sun at the Equinox that I made myself with model to scale:

As you can see, the sun rises first before south of the equator. This is wrong since the sun iluminates the hemispheres equally in the equinox.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 08:01:24 AM by Gazpar »

Offline Trebor

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Re: Request for peer review of my flat Earth disproofs
« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2015, 01:03:28 PM »
Fairly related to the topic is the live feed from the Japanese Himawari 8 satellite.
http://himawari8.nict.go.jp/
It gives a very nice full view of the Earth from a geosynchronous orbit.

Offline bknight

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Re: Request for peer review of my flat Earth disproofs
« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2015, 01:05:47 PM »
Fairly related to the topic is the live feed from the Japanese Himawari 8 satellite.
http://himawari8.nict.go.jp/
It gives a very nice full view of the Earth from a geosynchronous orbit.
Great link!
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Gazpar

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Re: Request for peer review of my flat Earth disproofs
« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2015, 02:55:10 PM »
Fairly related to the topic is the live feed from the Japanese Himawari 8 satellite.
http://himawari8.nict.go.jp/
It gives a very nice full view of the Earth from a geosynchronous orbit.
Even though thats great, its not good evidence because they will claim it is CGI/PAINT/FAKE.
These people are frustating
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 03:28:00 PM by Gazpar »

Offline bknight

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Re: Request for peer review of my flat Earth disproofs
« Reply #54 on: October 08, 2015, 08:54:32 PM »
I didn't crosscheck the link but there may be a couple more ways to debunk flat earthers
http://www.smarterthanthat.com/astronomy/top-10-ways-to-know-the-earth-is-not-flat/
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan