Author Topic: Good books about the moon landings hoax?  (Read 341763 times)

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #315 on: September 17, 2014, 01:33:17 PM »
Is it printed on nice soft three-ply tissue paper?  ::)

As a final insult, Burns prints his book on thick, clay-coated paper making it unsuitable even for use in the bathroom. 
I had my finger hovering over the "Buy" button until you said that!

Hmm. Is anyone else starting to smell a rat here?
Dunno about rats, but there's a distinct whiff of socks in the air.....

I have to say I also ordered a copy of Mr Burns' book
"Ordered" or did you mean "authored"??

it's impossible to really know if it's true or not.
Only if you are the most ardent solipsist. For the the vast majority of people its not impossible at all. In fact it's easy to say, to a very, very high degree of probability that it's not true. The ramblings of a sole person, communing with ghosts, claiming to cure arthritis with gooseberry leaves versus one of the most documented programs in human history, one that was witnessed by hundreds of thousands of people and one that has stood every test thrown at it? No, not difficult at all.
It's also very easy to say that Mr. Burns is either an outright charlatan (along with the vast majority of psychics, mediums, ghost hunters who charge for their "services" and prey on the weak-minded and distraught), or a straight-up, card-carrying member of the Woo-Woo brigade.

I think some people here are just pre-judging the book based on their own views on the author rather than the actual content. 
I can't speak for anyone else here, but I am judging the book on the ridiculous claims made by the author. The claims are bunkum. Nothing wrong with that if it is being presented as fiction, but Burns is trying to present it as fact. Which leads me to repeat what I said earlier. He is either a charlatan preying on the gullible or hopelessly confused.

For example the constant calling of it as a 'pamphlet' is rather rude really.
Not as rude as impugning the reputation of one of the most famous people in history though. Nor as rude as trying to make a case that the hundreds of thousands of people that were involved in the Apollo program were lying. Funny how you hoaxies are so thin-skinned but also so easily able to sling outrageous slurs on people who were smarter than you and who achieved more in a few years than the whole lot of the hoax "community" will ever achieve in their lives.

but I still easily found it value for money.
Your definition of VFM has nothing to do with the veracity of the claim.


I can understand why you might not believe it's true. But if it is or isn't doesn't take away from its entertainment value imho.
Entertainment value is a personal thing. However,  according to Jay's review AND the one other review on Amazon.com that didn't appear to be written by the author (Hmm..more sock-puppetry, I wonder???) then I am fairly confident in saying that it's "entertainment value" is probably lower than a snake's belly..
Again, the author is claiming that it's factual. The truth isn't to be distorted to provide entertainment.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Echnaton

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #316 on: September 17, 2014, 02:18:55 PM »
I can understand why you might not believe it's true. But if it is or isn't doesn't take away from its entertainment value imho.

A documentary that shows lemmings hurling themselves off cliffs and into the sea can have entertainment value, but it turns out it was a cruel lie also.   
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #317 on: September 17, 2014, 02:39:35 PM »
It's also very easy to say that Mr. Burns is either an outright charlatan [...], or a straight-up, card-carrying member of the Woo-Woo brigade.

I think he's an outright liar.  There are indeed claims of the supernatural in the book, which the skeptic can reject categorically and the gullible can accept if they wish.  But there are other claims as well that have nothing to do with supernatural concourse and which, but for Burns' selective modesty, would be susceptible to fact-checking.  I speak principally of the essay he claims to have written for a physics degree, "proving" that, as of 1963, the American space program could not succeed at Kennedy's challenge.  It's layman's hogwash, and in no physics college in the civilized world would it be considered meritorious of a subject-matter degree.  The half that isn't layman's misconceptions is simply repeated denialism and argument from incredulity.

The latter is especially baffling when you consider that he's writing in 2013 and seems to have arbitrarily chosen 1963 as the bellwether date for feasibility.  If you accept the premise of the claim, that's when he wrote the paper, hence that must be the perspective.  But on the one hand, I don't believe he wrote that in 1963, and on the other hand it makes no sense not to have revised it to account for what happened afterward.

In 2013, looking at a milestone in 1969, you have to consider what happened in the period 1963-1969 to see whether your 1963 predictions came true.  Repeatedly saying, "I don't think NASA can solve this problem" is rational opinion (although not necessarily informed) if you really do happen to be in living in 1963, but it's very dishonest if something happened in the interim to invalidate your prediction and you fail to account for it when you write in 2013.

In his letter he reiterates that he "knew" in 1963 that travel to the Moon was impossible, and that he was hoping "some breakthrough" would occur.  Apparently, writing in 2013, he didn't think to check for that breakthrough.  He just seems to have assumed that all his lay handwringing in 1963 would be valid forever.  That breakthrough, of course, was Project Gemini and the bulk of Apollo development that accompanied it.  Neil Burns' writing is entirely ignorant of anything that happened in the space program after 1963.  That would almost work, except that the ghosts of astronauts in his book manage to be just as ignorant as he.

In short, he does what most other conspiracy authors do.  He picks some arbitrary point in the past and makes uninformed, denialist claims from that perspective.  "In the 1960s, computers filled entire rooms," and "In the 1960s, NASA had barely gotten a man into orbit," etc.

I'm preparing a Clavius page to respond to his essay.

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I can't speak for anyone else here, but I am judging the book on the ridiculous claims made by the author.

Agreed.  Burns desperately wants someone to buy his book and praise him as the "entertaining" author he is in his own mind.  So he insinuates that a proper judgment of the book comes only if you buy it and read it, or at least circulate it around.  He seems completely oblivious to the notion of a claim being absurd on its face.

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Not as rude as impugning the reputation of one of the most famous people in history though.

And shamelessly trying to ride his coattails to a semblance of success.  It's historically dishonest, unabashedly egotistical, and in my opinion it's immoral and distasteful.  No one really cares if you trample all over Mary Queen of Scots' reputation in your quest for personal glory.  She's long dead, and her legacy long since diluted by subsequent history.  But when you prey on the memory of a recently deceased man of no small achievement, and you do it in such a way as to rob him of his credit and assume it upon yourself, it's deplorable.

In my several years writing on this subject I have seen many people challenge the accomplishments of NASA, Neil Armstrong, Wernher von Braun, and the host of lesser-known colleagues.  I have seen them fumble through what they think is an historically and technically amenable argument in support of that challenge.  I have seen them defend their beliefs (and their commerce) with passion.  But not until now have I seen someone mount that challenge on such intentionally insubstantial grounds, via such puerile tactics, and to such an obviously self-aggrandizing end.

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I am fairly confident in saying that it's "entertainment value" is probably lower than a snake's belly.

I think so.  As I said, even charitably disregarding the author's factuality claim and treating it as fiction, it alternates between tedious and pompous.  Its plot meanders pointlessly through the biography of an exceptionally boring man and its characters are all the same flat grey mush.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline smartcooky

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #318 on: September 17, 2014, 04:12:20 PM »
Hmm. Is anyone else starting to smell a rat here?


I've been catching a whiff of stale old socks for a couple of weeks now!
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 04:30:29 PM by smartcooky »
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Offline skeptic_UK

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #319 on: September 17, 2014, 04:48:54 PM »
Yes.  I think it's quite reprehensible for a grown man -- a chartered accountant and company director who says his honor is impeccable -- to pretend to be another person in order to shill his awful book.  I kind of expect that sort of childishness from other hoax claimants, but not from someone who claims to be well educated and prominent.

And thus it becomes even more apparent that he started this thread solely to drum up the appearance of support for his book.

Wait. Basically you're saying I must be this guy because I dare not join the rest of the group's opinion and savage a book I actually enjoyed reading?

Logical.  ::)

Offline Echnaton

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #320 on: September 17, 2014, 05:06:36 PM »
No, it has more to do with the shared inability to differentiate fact from fiction or even the inclination to do so.  And the fact you're shilling his idiotic book for no apparently good reason.
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline gillianren

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #321 on: September 17, 2014, 05:07:36 PM »
Every bit as logical as your statement that you can't tell if the story (which is impossible in multiple detail and ludicrous in all the others) is true or not?
"This sounds like a job for Bipolar Bear . . . but I just can't seem to get out of bed!"

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Offline JayUtah

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #322 on: September 17, 2014, 05:15:53 PM »
Wait. Basically you're saying I must be this guy because I dare not join the rest of the group's opinion and savage a book I actually enjoyed reading?

Logical.  ::)

No, not for that reason.  Instead for the reason that you think and write exactly like Neil Burns, including Burns' penchant for entertainment over truth and the ham-fisted, unwarranted back-patting.  Every sock puppet thinks he is capable of appearing as a different person, but every hoax claimant has telltale unconscious idiosyncrasies.  In the same way all of your characters in your book sound exactly like an upper middle-class English gentlemen, regardless of who you name them to be, your sock puppets say exactly the same things in exactly the same way.  You vastly overestimate your talent at sounding like different people.

Skeptic_UK shows up out of the blue asking for good hoax books.  A discussion ensues, but in very short order Jockndoris arrives after a long absence to advertise he has a book for sale.  Skeptic_UK refuses to answer any questions about what other books he might have purchased, and without much effort latches entirely onto Haunted by Neil Armstrong, acting as the perfect "satisfied customer."

How dumb do you think we are?

Give it up, Mr. Burns.  You have earned considerable disapproval here -- every bit of it deserved.  Since sock puppetry is strictly forbidden, I doubt you'll be allowed to continue flogging your terrible book.  Expect the moderator to ban you forthwith.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 05:17:41 PM by JayUtah »
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Echnaton

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #323 on: September 17, 2014, 05:17:59 PM »
Lets be clear here.  Skeptic_UK are you the same person as the one posting as Jockndoris?  Are you the author of Haunted by Neil Armstrong?  Do you have any association with Jockndoris or the author Neil Burns beyond this forum?
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #324 on: September 17, 2014, 05:27:37 PM »
Wait. Basically you're saying I must be this guy because I dare not join the rest of the group's opinion and savage a book I actually enjoyed reading?

Logical.  ::)

Yep, very logical.

6 days after you joined (requesting "good" books on the hoax) you get a post in your thread from Jockndoris- his first post in almost exactly 2 years. A minor love-in then ensues. More obvious than an obvious thing.
You can add subterfuge to the list of things that you're not very good at (along with being an author....)


No doubt LO will have logged the IPs (though you are probably using a proxy or WiFi hot-spot).
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline skeptic_UK

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #325 on: September 17, 2014, 05:33:23 PM »
Every bit as logical as your statement that you can't tell if the story (which is impossible in multiple detail and ludicrous in all the others) is true or not?

I merely state it doesn't bother me if its true or not (how do you know he isn't visited by ghosts?) I still found it a fun read.

Wait. Basically you're saying I must be this guy because I dare not join the rest of the group's opinion and savage a book I actually enjoyed reading?

Logical.  ::)

No, not for that reason.  Instead for the reason that you think and write exactly like Neil Burns, including Burns' penchant for entertainment over truth and the ham-fisted patting yourself on the back.  Every sock puppet thinks he is capable of appearing as a different person, but every hoax claimant has telltale unconscious idiosyncrasies.  In the same way all of your characters in your book sound exactly like an upper middle-class English gentlemen, regardless of who you name them to be, your sock puppets say exactly the same things in exactly the same way.  You vastly overestimate your talent at sounding like different people.

Skeptic_UK shows up out of the blue asking for good hoax books.  A discussion ensues, but in very short order Jockndoris arrives after a long absence to advertise he has a book for sale.  Skeptic_UK refuses to answer any questions about what other books he might have purchased, and without much effort latches entirely onto Haunted by Neil Armstrong, acting as the perfect "satisfied customer."

How dumb do you think we are?

Give it up, Mr. Burns.  You have earned considerable disapproval here -- every bit of it deserved.  Since sock puppetry is strictly forbidden, I doubt you'll be allowed to continue flogging your terrible book.  Expect the moderator to ban you forthwith.

So you think the moderator will just take your word that I'm the same bloke as this guy and just ban me? Good to see you have a low opinion of yourself. I'm sure a simple checking of my IP will show we are indeed not the same person. As for how dumb I think you are? well you think I'm a 70-odd year old accountant. So I think that answers that one  ;) :-X

No, it has more to do with the shared inability to differentiate fact from fiction or even the inclination to do so.  And the fact you're shilling his idiotic book for no apparently good reason.

Saying I like something is 'shilling'? you seem to like that word by the way I've noticed it a fair few times on this thread.

Offline ka9q

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #326 on: September 17, 2014, 05:35:11 PM »
C'mon guys, it doesn't really matter if skeptic_uk and jockndoris are the same person. Maybe they are, but what they each say can be laughed off merely on their own merits (or lack thereof).

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #327 on: September 17, 2014, 05:41:58 PM »
I merely state it doesn't bother me if its true or not...

False.  Your words were, "It's impossible to really know if it's true or not."  On the contrary it is possible, and your indifference either way does not erase the facts.

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how do you know he isn't visited by ghosts?

Because the "ghosts" speak and act just like you do, and reflect your particular ignorance of the facts.

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I still found it a fun read.

Irrelevant.  You purport it to be a true story, and as such it is a fraud.

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So you think the moderator will just take your word that I'm the same bloke as this guy and just ban me?

He won't need to take my word.

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Good to see you have a low opinion of yourself.

I don't, and I can't imagine why you'd think I do.

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Saying I like something is 'shilling'? you seem to like that word by the way I've noticed it a fair few times on this thread.

It fits what you do.  In your Jockndoris persona you've specifically tried to get your book into everyone's hands, even going so far as to inappropriately claim I'm helping you to do it.  In your Skeptic_UK persona you confirm all the good things your alter ego says about it.

I hope you market your juice a lot better than this.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline skeptic_UK

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #328 on: September 17, 2014, 05:42:30 PM »
Lets be clear here.  Skeptic_UK are you the same person as the one posting as Jockndoris?  Are you the author of Haunted by Neil Armstrong?  Do you have any association with Jockndoris or the author Neil Burns beyond this forum?

I've answered this already. But don't let that stop you.

Wait. Basically you're saying I must be this guy because I dare not join the rest of the group's opinion and savage a book I actually enjoyed reading?

Logical.  ::)

Yep, very logical.

6 days after you joined (requesting "good" books on the hoax) you get a post in your thread from Jockndoris- his first post in almost exactly 2 years. A minor love-in then ensues. More obvious than an obvious thing.
You can add subterfuge to the list of things that you're not very good at (along with being an author....)


No doubt LO will have logged the IPs (though you are probably using a proxy or WiFi hot-spot).

'Minor love-in'? I asked for some books on the hoax as this seemed to be a place to discuss such things. I did assume it was a forum for people who believed in the hoax (I was clearly wrong but that's cool). Looking back at this thread, I think you'll find I thanked everyone for replying, and the only people who actually properly engaged with Jockndoris were in-fact you lot!

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Good books about the moon landings hoax?
« Reply #329 on: September 17, 2014, 05:44:58 PM »
C'mon guys, it doesn't really matter if skeptic_uk and jockndoris are the same person. Maybe they are, but what they each say can be laughed off merely on their own merits (or lack thereof).

I did invite him to discuss his brilliant physics essay from 1963 proving Apollo would be impossible.  But obviously he's more interested in telling us over and over again what an entertaining author he is and how the book is so nicely done.  As long as his only mode of argument is going to be auto-mutual back-patting, that's all we have to to address.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams