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Off Topic => Other Conspiracy Theories => Topic started by: Northern Lurker on January 23, 2019, 04:28:34 PM

Title: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: Northern Lurker on January 23, 2019, 04:28:34 PM
Hi all!

Today I was taking a shower when I got an epiphany. There really is sort of conspiracy driving the vaccinations: both the government and the big pharma want to maximally profit from children.

Vaccinating them ensures they stay healthy and grow up to be good tax payers and stay alive long enough to get diseases like diabetes II, ulcers, hypercholestromia, hypertension, cancer, Parkinson's and Alzheimer's. Vaccines are cheap, the real profit comes from long treatments to aforementioned diseases.

Lurky
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: raven on January 23, 2019, 07:00:39 PM
Hi all!

Today I was taking a shower when I got an epiphany. There really is sort of conspiracy driving the vaccinations: both the government and the big pharma want to maximally profit from children.

Vaccinating them ensures they stay healthy and grow up to be good tax payers and stay alive long enough to get diseases like diabetes II, ulcers, hypercholestromia, hypertension, cancer, Parkinson's and Alzheimer's. Vaccines are cheap, the real profit comes from long treatments to aforementioned diseases.

Lurky
*Gasp* The fiends! What horrors will they think of next!
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: bknight on January 23, 2019, 11:06:35 PM
Of course there are immediate benefits to most of the vaccines to include with your list of long term effects.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: onebigmonkey on January 24, 2019, 02:03:30 AM
I saw a genuinely serious post by on a flat Earth facebook thread by someone who had bought into pretty much every conspiracy meme going, where she wholeheartedly agreed with a satirical report that said that vaccines had been proven to give people grey hair and wrinkled skin.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: gillianren on January 24, 2019, 10:57:02 AM
I was astonished when my faith-healing aunt came out in vocal support of vaccination on my Facebook page.  Then I realized . . . Aunt Karla's old enough to remember polio.  And when you just got measles and mumps and so forth.  She knows the difference; of course she prefers vaccination.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: Jason Thompson on January 25, 2019, 04:16:54 AM
Aunt Karla's old enough to remember polio.  And when you just got measles and mumps and so forth.

This is one of the biggest issues for any measure related to health and safety: when the measures are effective and the original problem is reduced or eliminated, people forget that the measures are the reason for the downturn, and the measures themselves become seen as unnecessary precisely because the thing they defend against isn't happening. It's the same reason we've had police and fire services reduced here: crime and fire rates are low so why do we need all these police and firemen anyway? People who remember how things were before the problem was eliminated tend to remain in favour of the measures because they remember, or even experienced personally, the problems.

I wish the anti-vax brigade would get the message that we vaccinate against these diseases because they kill. Even if the proposed 'dangers' of vaccination were actually real, surely even the most ardent anti-vax parent must be swayed by the choice between an alive child with problems and one that doesn't live to be an adult.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: onebigmonkey on January 25, 2019, 07:36:16 AM
I wish the anti-vax brigade would get the message that we vaccinate against these diseases because they kill.

I wish they'd go on holiday to somewhere with endemic but preventable diseases and not bother with the means of prevention.

It bugs the hell out of me that by and large every single one of them spouting this nonsense has a pock mark on their upper arm...
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: gillianren on January 25, 2019, 10:59:14 AM
And then when they are presented with real issues, some of them claim they're all fake.  Like my "imaginary friend" Chris and his son, who got measles at four months old after a family visit to Disneyland.  I call Chris my imaginary friend because parts of the internet are convinced he isn't real.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: Dalhousie on January 27, 2019, 02:58:44 AM
I wish the anti-vax brigade would get the message that we vaccinate against these diseases because they kill.

I wish they'd go on holiday to somewhere with endemic but preventable diseases and not bother with the means of prevention.

It bugs the hell out of me that by and large every single one of them spouting this nonsense has a pock mark on their upper arm...

Such places are getting harder to find as the current global immunisation rate is 85% for the four big childhood killers.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: twik on January 29, 2019, 11:34:08 AM
Aunt Karla's old enough to remember polio.  And when you just got measles and mumps and so forth.

This is one of the biggest issues for any measure related to health and safety: when the measures are effective and the original problem is reduced or eliminated, people forget that the measures are the reason for the downturn, and the measures themselves become seen as unnecessary precisely because the thing they defend against isn't happening. It's the same reason we've had police and fire services reduced here: crime and fire rates are low so why do we need all these police and firemen anyway? People who remember how things were before the problem was eliminated tend to remain in favour of the measures because they remember, or even experienced personally, the problems.

I wish the anti-vax brigade would get the message that we vaccinate against these diseases because they kill. Even if the proposed 'dangers' of vaccination were actually real, surely even the most ardent anti-vax parent must be swayed by the choice between an alive child with problems and one that doesn't live to be an adult.

Exactly. One of the worst things for an effective treatment or deterrent (whether it's medical or social) is that when it works, it's eventually mocked as a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Sort of like how many current financial commentators don't see the reason for restrictions on risky bank loans. Surely, they say, no one working for a bank would exceed sensible risk tolerances! Whyever should we put artificial limits on what these responsible grown-ups can do with their own assets?
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: gillianren on January 30, 2019, 11:17:18 AM
There's a screenshot going around of someone on an anti-vaxx forum who wants to know how to keep their kids from getting measles.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: raven on January 30, 2019, 01:51:12 PM
There's a screenshot going around of someone on an anti-vaxx forum who wants to know how to keep their kids from getting measles.
That would be as precious as the tweet about 'flat earthers all around the globe' if kids were not involved.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: ka9q on January 30, 2019, 05:03:03 PM
There's a screenshot going around of someone on an anti-vaxx forum who wants to know how to keep their kids from getting measles.
Well, I would certainly like to ask those anti-vaxxers how to keep their kids from getting measles, if not with the vaccine.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: Peter B on January 30, 2019, 05:18:59 PM
There's a screenshot going around of someone on an anti-vaxx forum who wants to know how to keep their kids from getting measles.
Well, I would certainly like to ask those anti-vaxxers how to keep their kids from getting measles, if not with the vaccine.

*sigh*

Google 'pox party'.

At the moment here in Australia there's a government ad on TV about meningococcal vaccines. It features a girl about two years old who's had her hand amputated as a result of the disease (and you can't see whether her other hand is intact), and her mother talking about wishing she'd known about the risks. Unpleasantly confronting, and I can only hope the message gets through - seeing what challenges her family is going to be facing in coming years I can almost believe there are things worse than having a child die.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: Northern Lurker on January 31, 2019, 01:29:37 PM
Sorry for dark humour https://imgur.com/gallery/u8yRvT5 (https://imgur.com/gallery/u8yRvT5) about a serious matter. Also https://imgur.com/gallery/VjxNzaE (https://imgur.com/gallery/VjxNzaE)  :D 8)

Lurky
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: raven on January 31, 2019, 06:21:04 PM
Gods, one of the things that made me just want to shout in anger, was an anti-vaxxer video about how last year was one of the worst in a long time on record, so so much for vaccines, amiright?
"You!" I wanted to shout. "You are doing this! You're breaking the bonds of herd immunity, you <words denoting canine heritage and unmarried status of the biological parents/>!"
It try not to get  flaming pissed often, but this  certainly worked grandly.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: bknight on January 31, 2019, 10:13:50 PM
Gods, one of the things that made me just want to shout in anger, was an anti-vaxxer video about how last year was one of the worst in a long time on record, so so much for vaccines, amiright?
"You!" I wanted to shout. "You are doing this! You're breaking the bonds of herd immunity, you <words denoting canine heritage and unmarried status of the biological parents/>!"
It try not to get  flaming pissed often, but this  certainly worked grandly.

Quit hiding your feelings, tell us how you really feel.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: raven on February 01, 2019, 01:02:06 AM
Quit hiding your feelings, tell us how you really feel.
If I told you that, your computer, nay, the very servers that serve this place would melt and burn asunder, your monitor wouldst be rent riven by the very force of my wrath. Oceans would boil, the land itself would become a sea of seething lava. The sun would be but a shadow, and the brightest quasar, the most brilliant accretion disk, could only hope to outshine my great fury.
So, yeah, I might be a tad bit peeved.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: gillianren on February 01, 2019, 11:10:02 AM
I had to take Simon to the ER for an ear infection yesterday morning, and there was a news report about a local measles epidemic.  Also instructions in the hospital about how to deal with a possible measles patient.  Vaccinating the kids is so much easier.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: bknight on February 01, 2019, 11:49:13 AM
I had to take Simon to the ER for an ear infection yesterday morning, and there was a news report about a local measles epidemic.  Also instructions in the hospital about how to deal with a possible measles patient.  Vaccinating the kids is so much easier.


Confirmed epidemic or just news hysteria?  What part of the Pacific northwest are you living?
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: jfb on February 01, 2019, 01:21:57 PM
I was astonished when my faith-healing aunt came out in vocal support of vaccination on my Facebook page.  Then I realized . . . Aunt Karla's old enough to remember polio.  And when you just got measles and mumps and so forth.  She knows the difference; of course she prefers vaccination.

Yup.  My folks grew up in the '30s and '40s.  They knew kids who wound up disfigured or killed by these diseases.  If they were still around I can only imagine the colorful language they'd use to describe anti-vaccine1 nitwits. 

I know the vaccination schedule is much more aggressive than when I was a kid, but still. 

And all of this is due to an unethical medical researcher who was paid by a rival manufacturer to discredit the MMR vaccine.  Andrew Wakefield is single-handedly responsible for one of the biggest medical crises in history, and how he hasn't been shunned to the point where he has to live in the desert is a mystery to me. 

1.  I've decided to stop using the term "anti-vax", as the VAX was an awesome machine and what I cut my teeth on as a larval programmer in college.  I don't want associated in any way with these idiots.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: bknight on February 01, 2019, 03:21:23 PM
It is apparent that when inoculations against measles, however done, stop measles outbreaks quickly follow.  To the antivaxxers, perhaps you might figure this into your child protecting procedures.


gillianren, I do see where Clark and King counties have outbreaks, I'm not sure that 25-35 cases is an epidemic, but then I'm not an editor of information services.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: gillianren on February 02, 2019, 11:23:27 AM
The CDC considers an epidemic to be any notable increase of cases of a disease above the baseline to be an epidemic.  One or two cases in a disease that was practically eliminated but not quite probably wouldn't be; a couple of dozen is.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: Northern Lurker on February 04, 2019, 04:36:15 PM
By the way, does anyone have any clue what motivates the anti-vaccine people? I haven't personally met any, but I'd guess some motivations would be:
-need to be special by having special knowledge. Bit same as many hoaxies
-conspirational mindset. Big pharma has it's evil side: they buy patents and hike prices to boost their profits without any regard to the people who actually need those medicines. Somehow some people need invent something else on top of that.
-need to challenge authorities and experts. "Everyone's opinion is equally valid".
-inability to assess risks. "Vaccination has some risk therefore I don't vaccinate and have zero risk" without considering the risks of not vaccinating.
-bandwagon effect. It's trendy not to vaccinate.
-peer pressure
-snakeoil salesmen who promote myths about vaccines to sell "natural" preventions and cures to preventable diseases
Anything else?

Lurky

edit to add -superstitions religious beliefs
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: Echnaton on February 04, 2019, 06:49:27 PM
By the way, does anyone have any clue what motivates the anti-vaccine people?

I overheard one the other day that was preaching, for a lack of a better description, about "heard" immunity.  That is that the real way to gain a group resistance to spreading disease (actually herd immunity) is through through telling others about it. So when hearing the words, one gains heard immunity. No kidding.

I was only in the room, not interacting in the conversation, so I left rather than embarrass myself with an outburst. 

I have a sister-in-law that is just about as kooky and recently got some type of certificate as a naturopath healer.  Although she has had a recurrence of breast cancer and thankfully is seeing a physician rather than seeking naturopathic treatments.  When she talks about this stuff, it is just a long stream of gish gallop without any tangible meaning.

It is some sort of religious faith healing for these people.  That is the only way I can fathom this kind of kookiness.

More charitably perhaps, my s-in-l is one of those types of people that seem to be perpetually perplexed and frightened by the world.  Despite her doing quite OK in life and raising two very bright kids, the world around her just doesn't make any sense to her.  It seems to me like her way of simplifying life and coping with a perplexing and confusing environment that she just can't grasp.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: gillianren on February 05, 2019, 10:54:52 AM
Apparently, there is also a strong connection to belief in bodily purity--people who preach about toxins are more likely to fear vaccines, because you're putting all that nasty stuff in your body.

Wakefield, of course, was motivated by profit.  Jenny McCarthy, I believe, is motivated by three factors--for one, a genuine need to understand why she has an autistic child.  (Who she now believes is cured, because yeah.  That poor kid.)  For another, a need to feel smart, especially given how frequently people have called her stupid over the years.  And for a third, a need for attention.  She'd faded from public view until she hopped on the anti-vaccine bandwagon.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: Echnaton on February 05, 2019, 11:57:11 AM
Although she has had a recurrence of breast cancer and thankfully is seeing a physician rather than seeking naturopathic treatments.

Unfortunate news. We've just heard that the S-in-L has rejected chemotherapy for a more "natural" approach as taught by her training.  While rejecting chemo can be a rational choice, she is far too young for the choice to be made on "I've lived a good long life and expect to be dead in soon either way." Doing so for naturopathic reasons is not rational.  Any more that rejecting vaccines is rational. The motivations for either are not really comprehensible to me. Alas, rational is not always enough.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: bknight on February 05, 2019, 12:09:14 PM
Although she has had a recurrence of breast cancer and thankfully is seeing a physician rather than seeking naturopathic treatments.

Unfortunate news. We've just heard that the S-in-L has rejected chemotherapy for a more "natural" approach as taught by her training.  While rejecting chemo can be a rational choice, she is far too young for the choice to be made on "I've lived a good long life and expect to be dead in soon either way." Doing so for naturopathic reasons is not rational.  Any more that rejecting vaccines is rational. The motivations for either are not really comprehensible to me. Alas, rational is not always enough.


My doctor commented after prostate cancer was detected, you have +/- 10 years remaining so he recommended radiation treatment as opposed to surgery.  So, I guess I'll go along with the idea the closer to expected longevity influences your choice of treatments.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: gillianren on February 06, 2019, 10:22:22 AM
I had a professor who stopped taking chemo because he was violently allergic to the chemo drugs--as in, they'd have killed him faster than the cancer did.  But he knew that he was going to die, and choosing to go off chemo gave him a little more time to say his goodbyes.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: Echnaton on February 07, 2019, 09:10:55 PM
My doctor commented after prostate cancer was detected, you have +/- 10 years remaining so he recommended radiation treatment as opposed to surgery.
Both my father and grandfather made the same decision for their prostate cancers and eventually died of other causes.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: onebigmonkey on February 08, 2019, 06:53:17 AM
Although she has had a recurrence of breast cancer and thankfully is seeing a physician rather than seeking naturopathic treatments.

Unfortunate news. We've just heard that the S-in-L has rejected chemotherapy for a more "natural" approach as taught by her training.  While rejecting chemo can be a rational choice, she is far too young for the choice to be made on "I've lived a good long life and expect to be dead in soon either way." Doing so for naturopathic reasons is not rational.  Any more that rejecting vaccines is rational. The motivations for either are not really comprehensible to me. Alas, rational is not always enough.

I have a friend whose mother died of cancer very quickly and painfully after deciding on the 'green tea and making my body less acid' snake oil approach. He gets very, very angry at people who promote that kind of choice at the expense of tried and tested but (as I know from experience) aggressive, unpleasant and life altering treatments that do actually work.

My cancer treatments cost the NHS hundreds of thousands of pounds. A vaccine against the HPV that triggered it costs a few pence. Who's making the money there?

Still on vaccines, I recently posted this on facebook in a vaccination discussion:

(https://i.imgur.com/RD54A5C.jpg)

It was originally posted in a local history group entirely unrelated to the topic, but I suggested people opposed to vaccination read the caption and think about the implications.

I'm off to Vietnam and Cambodia later this year. I look forward to getting my jabs to stop me getting some of the illnesses that are endemic. I am tempted to photograph the procedure so I can make the anti-vaccine  crowd froth at the mouth!
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: gillianren on February 08, 2019, 10:38:40 AM
Well, apparently Washington State vaccination rates are currently skyrocketing as all the "vaccine hesitant" parents weigh the costs of their kids' actually getting measles in our current outbreak and decide, yeah, vaccine, please.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: bknight on February 08, 2019, 01:20:42 PM
Well, apparently Washington State vaccination rates are currently skyrocketing as all the "vaccine hesitant" parents weigh the costs of their kids' actually getting measles in our current outbreak and decide, yeah, vaccine, please.

Better late than never.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: Peter B on February 09, 2019, 03:15:20 AM
Well, apparently Washington State vaccination rates are currently skyrocketing as all the "vaccine hesitant" parents weigh the costs of their kids' actually getting measles in our current outbreak and decide, yeah, vaccine, please.

Better late than never.

Interesting thought which just occurred to me...I wouldn't be surprised if drug companies wished vaccines lasted for only a few years or so, so they could keep selling them over and over.

But I also wonder how many parents also wished vaccines lasted only a few years or so, so they only need to have the vaccine "in their system" until the latest scare was over.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: raven on February 09, 2019, 10:46:07 AM

Interesting thought which just occurred to me...I wouldn't be surprised if drug companies wished vaccines lasted for only a few years or so, so they could keep selling them over and over.

But I also wonder how many parents also wished vaccines lasted only a few years or so, so they only need to have the vaccine "in their system" until the latest scare was over.
Vaccines do often have a limited useful life, since viruses and bacteria evolve tremendously fast, hence the flu shot, for example.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: Glom on February 09, 2019, 06:33:15 PM
Good news. My nephew got his MMR. I'm having a commemorative T-shirt made to celebrate.


Exactly. One of the worst things for an effective treatment or deterrent (whether it's medical or social) is that when it works, it's eventually mocked as a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Makes me think of the Millenium Bug Fallacy (new term I just coined). People think that because planes didn't fall out of the sky on new year 2000 that the Millenium Bug was just a false scare and don't recognise the huge amount of work that went in to updating systems to be Y2K compliant. It comes up a lot these days because of a certain event a certain country is not prepared for.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: ka9q on February 10, 2019, 03:40:25 AM
A MMR T-shirt? Sounds interesting. In late 2014 I had a stem-cell transplant to cap off my lymphoma treatment. This reset my entire immune system, so I had to be re-immunized like a newborn. But I had to hold off on live-virus vaccines for two years, including MMR. Right on cue, somebody brings measles to Disneyland, only a 90 minute drive north of here.

I managed to avoid getting sick, but it was with no small amount of relief that I was finally able to get my MMR shot two years later.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: gillianren on February 10, 2019, 11:50:02 AM
I actually wrote an article about Y2K in media that mentioned how much work was involved!  http://www.the-solute.com/y2k-of-the-month/

And ka9q, as I've mentioned before, I have friends who live about a forty-five minute drive from Disneyland whose four-month-old went there four Januaries ago.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: raven on February 10, 2019, 06:29:59 PM
Good news. My nephew got his MMR. I'm having a commemorative T-shirt made to celebrate.


Exactly. One of the worst things for an effective treatment or deterrent (whether it's medical or social) is that when it works, it's eventually mocked as a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Makes me think of the Millenium Bug Fallacy (new term I just coined). People think that because planes didn't fall out of the sky on new year 2000 that the Millenium Bug was just a false scare and don't recognise the huge amount of work that went in to updating systems to be Y2K compliant. It comes up a lot these days because of a certain event a certain country is not prepared for.
I would call that the IT Fallacy. When the IT guys do their job right, it looks like they're not doing anything. Or, heck, simply 'complacency'.
Title: Re: I cracked the government-big pharma vaccine conspiracy
Post by: Glom on February 11, 2019, 04:17:50 AM
Or the Godfellas effect, named for Futurama where Bender meets God who says when you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.