Author Topic: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch  (Read 123191 times)

Offline nomuse

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 859
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #120 on: December 15, 2018, 05:25:30 PM »
Hi Jay,

I think you are being a bit unfair with me regarding demonstrating a high burden of proof.

I not critical of you when you state certain things without support. For instances, regarding the RCS nozzles you stated the nozzles were "within the zone of boundary layer separation, thus protecting them from the supersonic slipstream.  The discontinuity where the conical command module becomes the cylindrical service module causes the boundary layer of air there to separate from the side of the service module.  You can see this illustrated by condensation around the stack during transonic flight.  The air in the immediate vicinity of the RCS quads is turbulent, not in laminar flow at high velocity." You don't back that statement up with anything.

Let me stop you there. First, and trivially, Jay has outlined the evidence supporting his explanation (the condensation). Of course, this may not appear to some people to be supporting evidence. They may not understand that effect. They may have alternate explanations they wish to tender.

The important thing is that Jay's explanation is, if I may portray it that way, outward-pointing. He uses standard terminology and he illustrates with common events. In almost everything he says it is possible to crack open the books, do the tests, interview the people, or otherwise drill deeper into his explanation.

I am not an aerospace engineer. I have to take much of what Jay says on trust, but know this; in all those places where he is talking about fields I AM familiar with, he is in complete agreement with my experience. This gives me confidence that if I were to follow up and investigate more thoroughly those things he says that lie outside my direct experience, what I would find there would also be in agreement.

Other posters here are the same way. The core idea is not that the use big words or that they appear confident, but that they are TRANSPARENT. There is not a poster here who says, "trust me." Instead they say "THIS is what I find in THIS reference..." and they describe or even link to the reference.

The majority of claims presented by hoax believers -- and by you -- are not outward-pointing. They are internal and circular, and can not be explored in this manner.

I am fine with that. But it is helpful to me as it gives me some direction to an answer. (of course, I haven't found documentation yet of the Saturn that shows this but no biggie). To me, this all about fruitful discourse. I am not demanding concrete proof on things, just ideas and thoughts. And Given some of your answers, I don't profess to have your level of knowledge on some things. But I can hold my own on other things. Thanks.

And then you reverse yourself, or seem to, in your concluding paragraph. I'll leave my statement standing, however.

I will give you this credit; you are labeling your images. Far too many hoax believers insist on cropped, fifth-generation versions of lunar surface record and the first task is to determine the actual mission, cassette, and frame so both the best quality scan and proper provenience (and, in several unfortunate cases, provenance!) can be determined.

Offline jr Knowing

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #121 on: December 15, 2018, 05:34:16 PM »
Hi nomuse,

Well at least you called me partially intelligent (I think) and I am not regurgitating drivel from the internet. That's a start.

Offline bknight

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3107
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #122 on: December 15, 2018, 05:36:36 PM »
Hi Everyone,

...

BKnight, with regards to the fender. Either you attached the wrong pic, or you are proving my point. The pic you attached are not tire tracks beside the fender, they are foot prints. The fender is no where near any tire tracks. In fact, the documentation states this pic is prior to rover rollout.

...
No, you are incorrect, or too hard headed to read and understand.  The pan was taken while Gene was testing the rover.
117:47:34 Cernan: Okay. Here we go. Okay. (Getting tongue-tied) The runt...the fright...the front wheels turn. I can't see the rear ones.
117:47:43 Schmitt: (Finishing the pan) I'll verify them in a minute.

https://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/AS17-147-22515HR.jpg was in fact part of the pan.

However, after much thought I must confess I was wrong it is not a fender piece.  All this discussion about being out of sequence is wrong and you are wrong.  You mentioned the LRO images gave you pause, what about them gives you pause?
I have another question, you haven't been listening to the willfully ignorant hunchbacked have you?  If so you should really pick better.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline jr Knowing

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #123 on: December 15, 2018, 06:05:06 PM »
Hi bknight,

I never suggested that pic wasn't part of a crew member pan (you might be confusing it with the post flight stitched together pans created by some). That pic is part of a crew member pan from Magazine 147 from pic 507-520 and occurs before the rover has even been removed from the LM. The fender (which you now say wasn't) is on the ground and their no tire tracks in a any of those pics. The test drive Lunar Rover PAN pics than come later in Magazine 147.

With regards to Hunchbacked, as I said before, I do not want to be seen in the same light as him. Even I agree he is completely clueless in most of what he puts out. As far as the LRO pics go, yes it is hard to dispute this recent evidence (unless there has been tampering) that shows proof of these landings. Having said this, I still have nagging concerns on some things.

Offline Luke Pemberton

  • Uranus
  • ****
  • Posts: 1823
  • Chaos in his tin foil hat
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #124 on: December 15, 2018, 06:35:46 PM »
...I am not regurgitating drivel from the internet. That's a start.

No it's not. Having an original thought does not necessarily make something a start. If that original thought is based on false premises, then it's no sort of start. You're simply making an appeal to your own authority, when it is clearly evidenced here that you have been corrected by those with actual authority in the field of aerospace engineering.

I see you mention other nagging issues. Could you elaborate. It would appear that you are in doubt that the Saturn V operated as advertised, as you submit evidence of its flight to support your argument with regard to the RCS thrusters.

At what point do you believe the Apollo landings were faked and why? Are you a 'they made it to low Earth orbit' proponent? I'm not clear where your nagging concerns lie.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 07:00:36 PM by Luke Pemberton »
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein.

I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people – Sir Isaac Newton.

A polar orbit would also bypass the SAA - Tim Finch

Offline bknight

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3107
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #125 on: December 15, 2018, 06:40:50 PM »
I give up I posted the timeline twice and shows that the test drive was during the pan at 4 o'clock. 

Now if you say I confused then what picture number are you referring?  Because you posted 22515, now you're saying it was different?  Let me know which number it is.  Yes 22525 came after the pan was completed, but that was not my thought.

Yes I say I am in error, that is a fender piece as Bertie posted, I think, the curve is correct over the wheel, but it is straight where it should be curved along the tire circumference.  Now can you admit you are wrong?
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline nomuse

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 859
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #126 on: December 15, 2018, 06:49:09 PM »
"Nagging concerns" is an interesting problem. As I pointed out several pages ago, inconsistencies will always pop up. A description of a thing, or an image of a thing, is not the thing itself. It is a model, and thus, inherently incomplete.

If you check out the "Reality of Apollo" sub-forum you will find many discussions where participants have drilled deeper, making more detailed models, getting closer to reality. This is well and good and expected. It is educational and fun.

Focusing on these same irreducible fractions where the model is not and can not be perfect within the frame of "The Hoax Theory" sub-forum is another matter entirely. Refusing to give up a line of enquiry as long as there remains even the slightest discrepancy (that is, forever; the model will always fall short) is an act of stubborn adherence to flawed view. It is not honest enquiry.

Offline jr Knowing

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #127 on: December 15, 2018, 07:13:57 PM »
Hi Bknight,

I have attached AS17-143-21932. It shows the LR in its final resting spot. They removed the other fender end for whatever reason. The fender is clearly not rounded like people tend to suggest. It is like the "fender" found on the ground in those pictures. I have reattached those photos again. These photos look very much like the fender in AS17-143-21932.

And not that I want to open up another kettle of fish, but take a look at that LR final resting spot photo AS17-143-21932 . It makes no sense. Both back wheels are off the ground. One wheel is larger than the other. No tire threads behind the back tires. And the rear axels are in complete different directions. And the upper part of the rear right antenna is showing a profile that can only be seen from directly below. I am sure someone will say foreshortening. But if they understand foreshortening, they will know this can't cause these things to happen.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 07:28:05 PM by jr Knowing »

Offline nomuse

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 859
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #128 on: December 15, 2018, 07:50:47 PM »


And not that I want to open up another kettle of fish, but take a look at that LR final resting spot photo AS17-143-21932 . It makes no sense. Both back wheels are off the ground. One wheel is larger than the other. No tire threads behind the back tires. And the rear axels are in complete different directions. And the upper part of the rear right antenna is showing a profile that can only be seen from directly below. I am sure someone will say foreshortening. But if they understand foreshortening, they will know this can't cause these things to happen.

No, no, no, no....and I have no idea what you mean by this last one but considering your problems thinking in three dimensions, I'm inclined to reject it, too.

Offline Obviousman

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 737
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #129 on: December 15, 2018, 07:57:17 PM »
I do notice that the OP seems to be avoiding answering Jay's direct and pointed questions. I wonder why?

Offline JayUtah

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3789
    • Clavius
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #130 on: December 15, 2018, 08:15:36 PM »
I wonder why?

My money's on his realization that he can't poison the well here.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Peter B

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1273
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #131 on: December 15, 2018, 08:55:10 PM »
...As far as the LRO pics go, yes it is hard to dispute this recent evidence (unless there has been tampering) that shows proof of these landings. Having said this, I still have nagging concerns on some things.

It's fine to have nagging concerns - about pretty much anything. The issue is how you react when they're addressed.

Early on in this thread you expressed concern that the astronauts in the LM didn't have enough visibility out of their windows in order to land safely. Well, there's two ways of answering this - the technical and the non-technical.

The technical one would involve taking measurements from the astronaut's head to determine the angular size of the field of view, using either an actual LM or re-creating one using available specifications; and then using that information to attempt a landing using some sort of simulator software. In other words, the method that Grumman and NASA used to test the original LM. As others have pointed out, the astronauts themselves were intimately involved in the design and construction of the LMs, and then tested themselves endlessly using simulators which were themselves constantly updated as the LM's design was tinkered with.

The non-technical one (which I'm happy with given that I'm not an engineer but a lay person with interest in the topic) is watch either a documentary or some other show which illustrates the process in a non-technical manner. In this case the best example I can think of is the TV show "From the Earth to the Moon". The episode "Spider" was about the designing, construction and flight testing of the LM, and there's a two-minute sequence which specifically addresses the visibility issue. It's available on YouTube if you search from the earth to the moon spider capsule problem solved and select the first video (I'd give the link but my browser won't show it). It shows Grumman engineers building a cardboard mock-up of the LM Ascent Stage front section to illustrate how wide a field of view the astronauts would have despite the window's small size.

Now, was this the exact sequence of events that happened in those Grumman offices? I don't know - quite possibly not. But it illustrates in a non-technical way how the engineers approached and solved a known problem, and it has the advantage of showing just how close the astronaut's head was to the window, which in turn shows you how wide his field of view actually was.

But the thing about the difference between technical and non-technical explanations is that any problem you can uncover in a non-technical description like the "spider" episode is unlikely to be a show-stopper; more likely it's due to the simplification which comes from it being a non-technical explanation. However, if you're going to challenge a technical explanation you'd better be able to demonstrate equivalent technical knowledge, otherwise the people with the relevant technical knowledge are perfectly able to ignore you, simply because you wouldn't understand the technical explanation.

At which point I'm going to throw this one back at you: What do you do for a job? What sort of technical knowledge do you have specifically relevant to that job? What sort of problems do people raise with you that you can answer due to your technical knowledge? Do people ask you questions for which the answer is completely non-intuitive to the non-expert? Do you get annoyed when people without your technical knowledge challenge the answers you give?

In my case, my current expertise is payroll. Where I work, people are paid fortnightly (that's two weeks for those of you without that bit of technical knowledge!) and the pay fortnight runs from Thursday to Wednesday, with people then being paid on the Thursday which starts the next pay fortnight. People who work part-time are paid for exactly the number of days they work in each fortnight. I had an employee who worked three days a week (that is, six days each pay fortnight), and she was changing which three days of the week she was working. I processed the necessary change, and sent her an email explaining that in the fortnight of the change she'd instead be paid only four days pay. She rang me up, completely baffled as to why she'd be getting only four days pay in a fortnight - after all, she wasn't changing the number of days she was working each fortnight: week after week she was working three days, and yet I was telling her that in one fortnight she was getting only four days pay. And yet I was convinced I was right. See if you can work out whether I was right, or had made a mistake (and yes, I make mistakes in this work).

Now, in cases like this where non-experts challenge us, sometimes the issue gets escalated until quite senior staff get involved. If we make mistakes in situations like this we get our backsides kicked and have to apologise and fix up the problem. So our mistakes have consequences too - not risking astronauts' lives or massively expensive spacecraft as is the case with JayUtah; but given the number of people who like to remind us about the mortgages they're paying, or who are in tears when we tell them bad news about their pay, the consequences of our mistakes can ripple through the lives of the people whose finances we've messed up: unpaid mortgages and bills, consequential financial penalties, embarrassment at the supermarket check-out when your card is declined and you have no cash. I'm sure you get the idea.

So yeah, we take our technical knowledge seriously, and we don't like it when non-experts presume to tell us on the basis of their completely non-technical knowledge that we've made a mistake of some sort, as we already know the likely causes and consequences of mistakes in that particular process.

And now, let's turn to your other concern - the LRO images and your statement "unless there has been tampering".

As I said earlier, it's fine to have nagging concerns. But this statement goes way beyond that. If you're going to make a claim of active tampering, I'd really like you to show some actual supporting evidence. Otherwise it belongs in the "They could have done this" category of evidence-free accusation which is, frankly, little more than mud-slinging. So until you actually present some evidence to back up this sort of statement, I think we're free to ignore it.

Finally, you say you have some nagging concerns on "some things".

Well, out with it. What "things" are these?

Let's turn it around and look at Apollo in the bigger picture. The reality of Apollo is supported by multiple streams of evidence, many of which exist in countries other than the USA. These streams of evidence are mutually consistent and all point to the same conclusion - that Apollo was real and happened as described.

There are, for example, the lunar soil samples collected by the then USSR in the 1970s, which are geochemically comparable with the Apollo samples.

For another example, I've spoken to a few of the Australian people who worked at the Honeysuckle Creek Tracking Station just outside Canberra, where I live. They were in control of their equipment, responsible for its maintenance and operation, and for training the people who worked there. They aimed their dish at points in space which were consistent with the Apollo spacecraft being where NASA said it was, and were receiving telemetry in real time. One of them even spoke to the Apollo 16 crew while they were on the Moon (which wasn't SOP - and if you knew much about Apollo you'd know why it wasn't SOP).

But one of the interesting things about these Honeysuckle guys is that they've even taken the time to try to work out if there was any way NASA might have faked Apollo under their noses without them realising (they concluded it was impossible, given what they knew about their own systems and the data they were receiving). And they were willing to do this as an intellectual exercise even though they have absolutely no doubt about the reality of Apollo. That's a level of open-mindedness which I'd humbly suggest you'd do well to follow.
Ecosia - the greenest way to search. You find what you need, Ecosia plants trees where they're needed. www.ecosia.org

Offline Peter B

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1273
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #132 on: December 15, 2018, 09:16:34 PM »
And not that I want to open up another kettle of fish, but take a look at that LR final resting spot photo AS17-143-21932 . It makes no sense. Both back wheels are off the ground.

I dispute that. The bottom of the nearer back wheel certainly appears to be off the ground. But given the unevenness of the ground and the lightness of the rover there's a pretty simple explanation for that. And I disagree that the farther back wheel is off the ground.

Quote
One wheel is larger than the other.

Well, given the photo was taken from off one corner you'd expect that, wouldn't you? And have you done any measuring and maths to confirm the relative difference in angular size? (Note, this is simple enough that even I could do it if I was inclined to do so.) Is it what you'd expect given the astronaut's location?

Finally, I can think of one factor related to the camera itself which might explain a greater size difference than you might have calculated, if you bothered to do that. However, as I'm not a camera expert I'll keep that to myself.

Quote
No tire threads behind the back tires.

And what do you think happens when people walk on a surface which is loosely compacted in a low-gravity vacuum?

Quote
And the rear axels are in complete different directions.

I'll assume here you mean the wheels are pointing in completely different directions. If not, could you explain better, please.

However, if I'm right, you should consider any car on Earth doing a tight turn, and I'll leave it at that. You should be able to work it out from there, but if you can't, the photo itself gives you the clue.

Quote
And the upper part of the rear right antenna is showing a profile that can only be seen from directly below.

Do you mean that wiry object in the shape of an octahedron? If so, I don't understand what your problem is. Could you explain a little more, please.

Quote
I am sure someone will say foreshortening. But if they understand foreshortening, they will know this can't cause these things to happen.

Well, as I've said, I'm not an expert in these sorts of things (except the maths - it's always good if a payroll person is competent at maths!). But as you can see I've been able to answer each of your concerns. In other words, I don't see any problems with the image.
Ecosia - the greenest way to search. You find what you need, Ecosia plants trees where they're needed. www.ecosia.org

Offline jr Knowing

  • Earth
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #133 on: December 15, 2018, 09:33:34 PM »
Hi Jay, Obviousman, Peter B,

Peter B, The answer is simple. She moved two of her work days in the week till after Thursday. And with regards to your comments about the preponderance of evidence, it is mainly from government sources. And as we have all come to know, governments can and have done some crazy, even unspeakable things.

Jay et al, I am not quite sure why everyone spends all their time questioning my motives and intentions and not addressing the issues I have laid out? And It is actually Jay who seems very quiet regarding my questions about A17 EVA/LM site comparisons/fenders etc. I don't think he has made a direct comment about of any this. But that is fine. He doesn't need to, if he doesn't want. I just wish the thread didn't get cluttered up with 'you are a hoaxer, reveal yourself' stuff. I like to stick to the meat and potatoes of things and have a fruitful dialectic dialogue with others.

Offline nomuse

  • Jupiter
  • ***
  • Posts: 859
Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #134 on: December 15, 2018, 09:58:13 PM »
Hi Jay, Obviousman, Peter B,

Peter B, The answer is simple. She moved two of her work days in the week till after Thursday. And with regards to your comments about the preponderance of evidence, it is mainly from government sources. And as we have all come to know, governments can and have done some crazy, even unspeakable things.

Jay et al, I am not quite sure why everyone spends all their time questioning my motives and intentions and not addressing the issues I have laid out? And It is actually Jay who seems very quiet regarding my questions about A17 EVA/LM site comparisons/fenders etc. I don't think he has made a direct comment about of any this. But that is fine. He doesn't need to, if he doesn't want. I just wish the thread didn't get cluttered up with 'you are a hoaxer, reveal yourself' stuff. I like to stick to the meat and potatoes of things and have a fruitful dialectic dialogue with others.

Bah. No. First off, that is a cheap excuse. It may sound plausible, even profound, at the very tinniest glimmer of first glance but it then falls apart. How exactly does "a government" (which are hardly monolithic entities) create sustain and most importantly coordinate a deception which crosses every agency and departmental line possible? That goes all the way from Presidential speeches down to tax records at a civilian company which just happens to be doing contract work for a government agency?

It's ludicrous. You might as well say, "Since the Matrix re-writes our memories..." or "Since swarms of angels selectively block our vision with their magical wings..."

Second, unless you take an extremely generous definition of what "government" means, the majority of the total material is civilian and a significant amount isn't even American.

Third, everything provided is consistent with other material produced from those same sources. It agrees in insane detail to standard practices and known physics. See, this is something that trips up the hoaxies all the time. They think that all we can know of, say, the performance of a particular fuel is a number handed to us from NASA. No. Rocket science is physics and chemistry. An ordinary untrained person with basic math and familiarity with basic science can get a first-order approximation of how those chemicals in some sort of generic rocket motor would perform.

(The rocket science in rocket science involves getting them to burn as desired and when desired...among the myriad other important details!)

So you can't pretend there is this bright line around how things would have to work in space or how a spacecraft should be designed or conditions on the Moon and say you have to take that on trust from a "government" which could be lying.

This is intellectual cowardice. This is cheap debating tactics, nothing more.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 09:59:48 PM by nomuse »