Author Topic: A Little Help, Please?  (Read 25094 times)

Offline ka9q

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Re: A Little Help, Please?
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2013, 02:37:04 AM »
It's always the same. NASA can do anything... except error check.
Or land on the moon.

I used to have fun demolishing Hunchbacked's various technical objections to Apollo systems, as many were in my own field. He seemed like a know-it-all kid exhibiting the classic danger of just a little knowledge. He'd obviously had some exposure to physics, electronics and software engineering, but his understanding is cursory and naive. He often objects to things done differently than he's used to, and he has a hard time accepting that there just might have been some perfectly good reasons. In other words, he's an absolutely classic example of Dunning-Kruger.

Still, after a lot of pounding, on a very few occasions I actually got him to retract a few claims. This made me think I just might be able to reason with him. If he could just have an epiphany that there are many things he does not know, and that many of them are actually worth learning...

Two videos then made me give up. The first was about a picture of the Apollo 17 CSM America taken through the overhead rendezvous window of the LM Challenger just before docking. It doesn't take a genius at spatial reasoning to see that we were seeing exactly what we should see from a point very close to the CSM's docking probe, but he complained that we couldn't see the sides of the SM. So I began to openly wonder if hunchbacked was blind in one eye, suffered from "lazy eye" as a kid, or had some other condition that made him unable to judge visual perspectives that would be easy for an average sighted 5-year-old kid.

But what really cemented things was his famous "Underwater Buzz Aldrin imposter breathing through microphone tubes" video. I realized at that moment that Hunchbacked is just totally batshit insane, and nothing will ever reach this poor soul.

Offline Noldi400

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Re: A Little Help, Please?
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2013, 04:14:34 PM »
So I began to openly wonder if hunchbacked was blind in one eye, suffered from "lazy eye" as a kid, or had some other condition that made him unable to judge visual perspectives that would be easy for an average sighted 5-year-old kid.

But what really cemented things was his famous "Underwater Buzz Aldrin imposter breathing through microphone tubes" video. I realized at that moment that Hunchbacked is just totally batshit insane, and nothing will ever reach this poor soul.

"Batshit insane"; is that a technical term?  One of my instructors (a professor of psychiatry at Bowman Grey, he was) taught us that the correct terminology was "barnyard crazy".  ;D

Assuming that he's serious, I don't think there's any question that there's a vision issue there of some kind. Whether it's an eye problem or some kind of processing problem I don't know, but any time he tries to deal with perspective or angles in a photograph his conclusions are utter chaos.  I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he's a graduate of the Jack White School of Photogrammetry.

I almost always learn something new from these little jaunts, though. In this case I learned about the spot meter (designated attack dog Chev4206 is still fighting the hook - he complains that it "looks suspiciously like a hassleblad camera"). I had always wondered a little about the red helmets seen on AS-9 but assumed they were just a transition version; until I actually researched a bit I didn't know that ALL the LEVAs were red under the white beta cloth covers. How about that?

Still, wouldn't you love to talk to Hunchbacked face-to-face once, just to get a feel for what's going on in his head?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 04:24:27 PM by Noldi400 »
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline ka9q

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Re: A Little Help, Please?
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2013, 07:14:35 PM »
Assuming that he's serious, I don't think there's any question that there's a vision issue there of some kind. Whether it's an eye problem or some kind of processing problem I don't know
I'm tempted to say the problem is in the processing. A second eye isn't an advantage in judging perspective in a non-3D painting or photograph, but we can still do it a lot better than he can.

This is why I find the guy so fascinating. I understand that brain researchers learned most of what we know about its structure by examining people with various pathological conditions.
Quote
In this case I learned about the spot meter
Funny this should come up. The other week I had an argument with one of hunchbacked's groupies, Pascal Votan, who thought it incredibly suspicious that no lightmeter was carried to the surface on Apollo 11, forcing Buzz Aldrin to -- gosh -- call all the way to earth to get the exposure settings for shadow photography by the 16mm camera during the EVA. I explained that there wasn't a whole lot of unpredicability here even if it was the first manned lunar landing. I guess a spotmeter was carried in the CSM for interior photography where the lighting was much less predictable.
Quote
I had always wondered a little about the red helmets seen on AS-9 but assumed they were just a transition version; until I actually researched a bit I didn't know that ALL the LEVAs were red under the white beta cloth covers. How about that?
I had noticed that red helmet in Apollo 9 but no, I didn't know that...
Quote
Still, wouldn't you love to talk to Hunchbacked face-to-face once, just to get a feel for what's going on in his head?
It would certainly be an .... interesting .... experience, though I'm already far too familiar with what's going on in his head.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 07:17:45 PM by ka9q »

Offline raven

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Re: A Little Help, Please?
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2013, 08:21:14 PM »
 I heard, 2nd hand, hunchbacked corrected a fellow conspiracy theorist on some technical bit, and was right, so there obviously is something he has some expertise or at least knowledge on.
*sigh* At least he's better than NASACrooks, Jay Blue, UTubeNWO, nasafakedit, etcetera, etcetera.
The guy even took offence when I wished him a Merry Christmas, for Pete's sake!

Offline Noldi400

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Re: A Little Help, Please?
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2013, 03:53:45 AM »
Quote
In this case I learned about the spot meter
Funny this should come up. The other week I had an argument with one of hunchbacked's groupies, Pascal Votan, who thought it incredibly suspicious that no lightmeter was carried to the surface on Apollo 11, forcing Buzz Aldrin to -- gosh -- call all the way to earth to get the exposure settings for shadow photography by the 16mm camera during the EVA. I explained that there wasn't a whole lot of unpredicability here even if it was the first manned lunar landing. I guess a spotmeter was carried in the CSM for interior photography where the lighting was much less predictable.

Yeah, I remember - I had a piece of that argument too, I think.  Usually having both hands full, most of the moonwalkers tended to use Houston as a quick reference on various things. I guess that concept is just outside the grasp of the typical HB.

I heard, 2nd hand, hunchbacked corrected a fellow conspiracy theorist on some technical bit, and was right, so there obviously is something he has some expertise or at least knowledge on.
*sigh* At least he's better than NASACrooks, Jay Blue, UTubeNWO, nasafakedit, etcetera, etcetera.
The guy even took offence when I wished him a Merry Christmas, for Pete's sake!

That's one of the things that I find fascinating about the guy. I think he's absolutely sincere about the nonsense he puts out there and believes that if we would just look at the "evidence" with open minds, the 'hoax' would be obvious. He's definitely better than his groupies like Chev4206; when someone commented that he lacked any form of critical thinking skills, he replied:

Critical thinking skills? I don't know what that is, nor do I care, as I form my own thinking skills. Those based on truth.

Well, no shit, Sherlock. All the physical evidence is faked, all the witnesses are lying. Not an argument it takes much thinking to make.









"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline ka9q

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Re: A Little Help, Please?
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2013, 07:36:43 AM »
Critical thinking skills? I don't know what that is, nor do I care, as I form my own thinking skills. Those based on truth.
Yup, that sounds like him alright.

Are you following the 3-way row with CNN911Fakes over whether rockets work by mass reaction?

Offline Noldi400

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Re: A Little Help, Please?
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2013, 11:12:54 AM »
Critical thinking skills? I don't know what that is, nor do I care, as I form my own thinking skills. Those based on truth.
Yup, that sounds like him alright.

Are you following the 3-way row with CNN911Fakes over whether rockets work by mass reaction?

No, I've been doing a little gishing of my on to hunchy about all the things wrong with the so-called "Apollo 16" video. I'll have to look in on that one.

===================================================
Later Edit:
If it's the one that centers around the Saturn V's thrust, I looked in on it.  That's one conversation I want no part of.  Back in school, I did quite well in geometry and elementary algebra, but somewhere along about quadratics I began to bog down, and when we hit trig and calculus my brain simply refused to accept the data.

I could follow the main trend, though. It sounds like CNNetc is trying to use something like Zeno's Arrow Paradox to prove that the S-V couldn't lift off.  Good luck with that. Another self-designated genius who can't be bothered to learn a few things before inflicting his opinions on the world.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 12:18:19 PM by Noldi400 »
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline ka9q

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Re: A Little Help, Please?
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2013, 07:28:05 PM »
The math is really quite simple: thrust = mass flow rate * ejection velocity. That comes from Newton's second law just as F=ma does. In fact, Newton didn't originally say "F=ma"; he said F = dp/dt = d(mv)/dt, which says that force is proportional to the rate of change of momentum, with momentum being mass times velocity. From this you can get

F = d(mv)/dt = m dv/dt = ma.

You can also get

F = d(mv)/dt = v dm/dt = v r (velocity times mass rate)

It's this latter one that he totally rejects. And yes, he's using Zeno's paradox though I don't know if he's actually aware of it. Basically, he's taking a number X, multiplying it by zero, pointing out that the result is zero, and exclaiming this proves X must be zero!

Offline Noldi400

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Re: A Little Help, Please?
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2013, 02:31:37 PM »
But what really cemented things was his famous "Underwater Buzz Aldrin imposter breathing through microphone tubes" video. I realized at that moment that Hunchbacked is just totally batshit insane, and nothing will ever reach this poor soul.

That was definitely the point of no return, I think. I already knew that he was terrible with perspective and changing angle in photos; when he started in on the theory that the lunar astronauts sincerely believe that they went to the moon because they were drugged and hypnotized and had false memories implanted, that was when I began to suspect that his reality was somewhat distorted - "The Manchurian Astronauts"?.
"The sane understand that human beings are incapable of sustaining conspiracies on a grand scale, because some of our most defining qualities as a species are... a tendency to panic, and an inability to keep our mouths shut." - Dean Koontz

Offline Glom

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Re: Re: A Little Help, Please?
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2013, 03:11:23 PM »
The math is really quite simple: thrust = mass flow rate * ejection velocity. That comes from Newton's second law just as F=ma does. In fact, Newton didn't originally say "F=ma"; he said F = dp/dt = d(mv)/dt, which says that force is proportional to the rate of change of momentum, with momentum being mass times velocity. From this you can get

F = d(mv)/dt = m dv/dt = ma.

You can also get

F = d(mv)/dt = v dm/dt = v r (velocity times mass rate)

It's this latter one that he totally rejects. And yes, he's using Zeno's paradox though I don't know if he's actually aware of it. Basically, he's taking a number X, multiplying it by zero, pointing out that the result is zero, and exclaiming this proves X must be zero!

It's quite a sight to see things like this. Conspiracists reject some of the most fundamental laws of physics in order to maintain their world view. Hoax belief must be quite the obsession for then to venture that far down the rabbit hole.

Offline Glom

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Re: Re: A Little Help, Please?
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2013, 03:11:44 PM »
The math is really quite simple: thrust = mass flow rate * ejection velocity. That comes from Newton's second law just as F=ma does. In fact, Newton didn't originally say "F=ma"; he said F = dp/dt = d(mv)/dt, which says that force is proportional to the rate of change of momentum, with momentum being mass times velocity. From this you can get

F = d(mv)/dt = m dv/dt = ma.

You can also get

F = d(mv)/dt = v dm/dt = v r (velocity times mass rate)

It's this latter one that he totally rejects. And yes, he's using Zeno's paradox though I don't know if he's actually aware of it. Basically, he's taking a number X, multiplying it by zero, pointing out that the result is zero, and exclaiming this proves X must be zero!

It's quite a sight to see things like this. Conspiracists reject some of the most fundamental laws of physics in order to maintain their world view. Hoax belief must be quite the obsession for then to venture that far down the rabbit hole.

Offline raven

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Re: A Little Help, Please?
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2013, 08:51:38 PM »
Well, I wouldn't go that far. Most of them likely do not have the depth of knowledge to know they are actually doing so.

Offline Glom

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Re: Re: A Little Help, Please?
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2013, 12:13:41 AM »
Well, I wouldn't go that far. Most of them likely do not have the depth of knowledge to know they are actually doing so.

But you explain it to them and they dismiss it.

Offline ka9q

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Re: A Little Help, Please?
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2013, 06:13:04 AM »
Well, I wouldn't go that far. Most of them likely do not have the depth of knowledge to know they are actually doing so.
I'm not sure. Some of them are very clever in their idiocy, if you know what I mean.

Offline Echnaton

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Re: A Little Help, Please?
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2013, 07:45:56 AM »
Well, I wouldn't go that far. Most of them likely do not have the depth of knowledge to know they are actually doing so.
I'm not sure. Some of them are very clever in their idiocy, if you know what I mean.

But does a method to the madness negate the madness?
The sun shone, having no alternative, on the nothing new. —Samuel Beckett