Author Topic: Space temperature. Space physics, and the naked emperor.  (Read 1403 times)

Offline Allen the van

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Space temperature. Space physics, and the naked emperor.
« on: December 09, 2017, 05:31:18 PM »
When you learn about  space temperature at college you get told some confused stuff:
Space doesnt have a temperature really; space is cold; space is 4 degrees Kelvin.
Also we are told that the average temperature of the universe is 4k and also that the coldest place is 4k.
Other strange and self contradicting messages include the temperature around the kamar line. One side is very hot and the other, apparently is very cold.
A lug nut that doesn't spin would be roasting on the sunny side and frozen to near 4k on the cold side.
All this confusion leaves a whole wide gap for Apollo.
Here's my version of the cold hard facts.
Space has a temperature which you can measure with a temperature. Temperature is not measured accurately by the kenetic energy of molecules. That energy is dependent partly on heat and partly on pressure. But there is no necessity for molecules to be present in order to have heat.
It's worth repeating this point since we have it wrongly reiterated day in and day out among the dwindling number who have any care about science.
Heat works perfectly well in a vacuum oven. Check out like a million utube vids on vacuum ovens.
Space can be 4k sure. You need to go to the deepest reaches of desolation to find 4k space, but it's not anywhere near earth. The JWST will enjoy these low temperatures but only thanks to very deliberate screening from the sun and being places a million miles away from heat sources like earth and the moon. The earth's core ensures that minus 70 C is the coldest you'll get on the surface.
The thermosphere is another hoax which supports Apollo indirectly. The real thermosphere is centred around the sun. The earth's real thermosphere starts from the surface and is around minus 70 C. Any heat above that value is thanks to the sun.
I can think of at least 2 more common lies you get told about temperature in space. There is the heat transfer mechanism argument which tries to apologise for Apollo's lack of science by playing a shell game with conduction convection and radiation, and then there's the black body radiation and the bbq roll.
It's not even necessary to go into all this comedy, all you have to understand is that the sun is hot.
Apollo is the only manned mission that complained of the cold in space as far as my research goes.
Many accounts elsewhere speak of a hostile heat which threatens immediate death. That's no exaggeration, see the first Space walk by Leonov, or Skylab s first day out in the sun.
And why wouldn't it be cold? Ask the father of Icarus.


Offline Apollo 957

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Re: Space temperature. Space physics, and the naked emperor.
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2017, 06:35:43 PM »
"Space has a temperature which you can measure with a temperature. "

Where can I find one of these temperatures, with which I can measure temperatures?

Amazon? eBay?

Offline Count Zero

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Re: Space temperature. Space physics, and the naked emperor.
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2017, 09:31:51 PM »
When you learn about  space temperature at college you get told some confused stuff...
I can think of at least 2 more common lies you get told about temperature in space....
It's not even necessary to go into all this comedy...

Let me get this straight:

YOU don't understand it, therefore it is all lies and hoaxes.

That's what it comes down to?

And if YOU don't understand it, no one else could possibly understand it, right?   :o
"What makes one step a giant leap is all the steps before."

Offline bknight

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Re: Space temperature. Space physics, and the naked emperor.
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2017, 06:16:10 AM »
snipped to remove obvious errors in temperatures.
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Here's my version of the cold hard facts.
As long as your "version" fits currently acceptable science, sure.
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Space has a temperature which you can measure with a temperature. Temperature is not measured accurately by the kenetic energy of molecules. That energy is dependent partly on heat and partly on pressure. But there is no necessity for molecules to be present in order to have heat.
You're continuing badly, here.  Tell me what is the pressure in say a steel bolt?
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It's worth repeating this point since we have it wrongly reiterated day in and day out among the dwindling number who have any care about science.
Many do care about science, in fact there are many that devote their lives to it, in spite of the fact of your lack of understanding of science, especially physics.
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Heat works perfectly well in a vacuum oven. Check out like a million utube vids on vacuum ovens.
Citing YTube as a source shows your lack of understanding of the rigorous methods employed by scientists.
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Space can be 4k sure. You need to go to the deepest reaches of desolation to find 4k space, but it's not anywhere near earth. The JWST will enjoy these low temperatures but only thanks to very deliberate screening from the sun and being places a million miles away from heat sources like earth and the moon. The earth's core ensures that minus 70 C is the coldest you'll get on the surface.
The thermosphere is another hoax which supports Apollo indirectly. The real thermosphere is centred around the sun. The earth's real thermosphere starts from the surface and is around minus 70 C. Any heat above that value is thanks to the sun.
I can think of at least 2 more common lies you get told about temperature in space. There is the heat transfer mechanism argument which tries to apologise for Apollo's lack of science by playing a shell game with conduction convection and radiation, and then there's the black body radiation and the bbq roll.
Ah we finally get to the meat of the subject post.  There is no shell game of science concerning heat transfer, perhaps your complete misunderstanding for sure.  Convection requires an atmosphere, the Moon doesn't have enough of one to support convection, so no convection heat transfer on the Moon.  Conduction requires contact, not much conductive heat transfer on the Moon, unless that is you're touching it as the Apollo astronauts did in the 69-72.  Heat transfer by radiation is alive and well on the Moon, or don't you understand heat transfer?
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It's not even necessary to go into all this comedy, all you have to understand is that the sun is hot.
Wow a correct statement finally
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Apollo is the only manned mission that complained of the cold in space as far as my research goes.
Your "research" is poor at best.
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Many accounts elsewhere speak of a hostile heat which threatens immediate death. That's no exaggeration, see the first Space walk by Leonov, or Skylab s first day out in the sun.
And why wouldn't it be cold? Ask the father of Icarus.

Your lack of knowledge of heat transfer is naïve at best at worst your lack of science is appalling.  Did you sleep through any physics classes, presuming you actually took any either in high school or post high school.

EDIT:  I eagerly wait the board experts to take apart this "piece of work"
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 06:21:27 AM by bknight »
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Offline Halcyon Dayz, FCD

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Re: Space temperature. Space physics, and the naked emperor.
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2017, 07:51:00 AM »
It's Kármán line, not "kamar line."
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It rots the mind and blackens the heart.

Offline Trebor

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Re: Space temperature. Space physics, and the naked emperor.
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2017, 09:11:49 AM »
Dr. Stu of the Exposing PseudoAstronomy podcast did a recent episode on temperature in space which is here :
https://pseudoastro.wordpress.com/2017/10/01/podcast-episode-165-little-things-in-space/

Offline sts60

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Re: Space temperature. Space physics, and the naked emperor.
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2017, 09:30:22 AM »
Hi Allen, welcome to the board.

I’m afraid your post didn’t make much sense.  For example, you don’t understand what the thermosphere is; your attempt to redefine it is incompatible with the actual physics of the thermosphere.  Your discussion of temperature is incoherent.  And your claim about the “lack of science” from Apollo is just silly, and shows you don’t understand the program very well.  I was at a seminar just a couple of months ago where Apollo 17 astronaut Harrison Schmitt discussed the current research he and his colleagues are doing based on A17 results.

Offline onebigmonkey

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Re: Space temperature. Space physics, and the naked emperor.
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2017, 10:12:28 AM »
And why wouldn't it be cold? Ask the father of Icarus.

Daedalus did quite well by managing his temperature properly.

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Space temperature. Space physics, and the naked emperor.
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2017, 11:32:05 AM »
Hello Allen, welcome onboard.


What you've basically outlined is an argument based on personal incredulity. Just because you cannot understand something that does not not mean that the thing is untrue. Can i suggest that you maybe investigate an online or adult education course in basic physics? That might help you with the basic science that you are clearly struggling with.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 11:34:22 AM by Zakalwe »
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Offline gillianren

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Re: Space temperature. Space physics, and the naked emperor.
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2017, 12:16:23 PM »
But there is no necessity for molecules to be present in order to have heat.

This is literally just the opposite of true.

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Ask the father of Icarus.

The problem of Icarus is that he had what the Ancient Greeks called hubris.  It meant a kind of arrogance, believing you were more important and capable than you were and reaching beyond your limits.  The inevitable fall was nemesis, a bringing consequences for the arrogance.  You would be well served to live by that example.
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Offline ineluki

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Re: Space temperature. Space physics, and the naked emperor.
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2017, 03:48:00 AM »
Ask the father of Icarus.

Coming up next... Zeus and the Apollo 12 lightning...

Offline jfb

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Re: Space temperature. Space physics, and the naked emperor.
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2017, 09:39:03 AM »
It sounds like you're confusing the concepts of heat and temperature.

Temperature is a measurement of kinetic energy of the atoms/molecules making up some substance.  Heat is the flow of energy from areas of high temperature to areas of low temperature.  Energy can travel through a vacuum as IR radiation. 

The concept of temperature doesn't apply to a vacuum; however, space isn't really a vacuum - it's full of stuff that's radiating heat.  Stars, planets, gas clouds, etc., all have a temperature and all radiate heat out into space.  That 4 Kelvin figure comes from (I believe) averaging all that heat out over the scale of the universe. 

But locally, things are much different.  The surface of the Earth and the Moon are both being warmed by the Sun, because thermal energy can travel through a vacuum as IR radiation.  Any spacecraft traveling between the Earth and Moon is also being warmed by IR radiated from the sun - it's why the Apollo spacecraft were put into a "barbeque roll" during the transit to maintain an even temperature over the surface of the spacecraft. 

Offline nomuse

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Re: Space temperature. Space physics, and the naked emperor.
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2017, 10:47:57 AM »
Yah...another ambiguous term.

"Space," meaning what's outside of Earth's atmosphere, or "Space," meaning what's between all the THINGS that are beyond Earth's atmosphere.

Best to use "vacuum" for the later. (Even if that, too, has some issues.)

Offline gwiz

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Re: Space temperature. Space physics, and the naked emperor.
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2017, 05:20:52 AM »
Allen, you don't need to go to college to get the basic understanding of physics that you so clearly lack.  A good school science course should do the trick.  You need to concentrate first on understanding exactly what "heat" and "temperature" mean.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 05:22:37 AM by gwiz »
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Offline nomuse

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Re: Space temperature. Space physics, and the naked emperor.
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2017, 06:42:05 PM »
I think -- the actual astronomers should be along soon -- the 4K is the residual background radiation, the red-shifted remnant of the first moments when photons could travel freely through the early universe. So no matter how remote you are from any other object, the view angle of your radiator will be seeing 4K. You can't cool below that point by radiation.

But just a look up at the night sky will show a lot more sources (closer in time and space). And that's before you get to a nicely radiating body like a nearby planet.