ApolloHoax.net

Off Topic => General Discussion => Topic started by: dwight on February 14, 2013, 11:27:44 PM

Title: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: dwight on February 14, 2013, 11:27:44 PM
Just so you know. I have decided to quit whining and end my membership over there. The over moderation is a damn conspiracy me thinks.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: raven on February 14, 2013, 11:33:31 PM
Your call, dwight, but I've never found it to be an issue.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: pzkpfw on February 15, 2013, 12:12:54 AM
Just to note: ending your membership simply amounts to not posting there any more.

As a former mod there, I can tell you there is no process for "ending your membership".

Even when someone really flames out and does something to get banned, that doesn't result in all their posts being removed, so there's just nothing to terminate.

If you want to have "help" not posting there any more, the usual method is to change your password, while not looking at the keyboard, so you can no longer log in.

http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread.php/142172-How-do-I-end-my-membership-here
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Glom on February 15, 2013, 01:02:59 AM
You can always reset.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: pzkpfw on February 15, 2013, 01:04:41 AM
You can always reset.

Yeah, but someone who does that clearly doesn't want to not be a member.

After all, not every sock is detected, so a person could even make a new account after getting banned - or asking to have their account deactivated - so there's always a way around it.

That's why the simple answer is - just stop posting.

It's a simple matter of self-control.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Glom on February 15, 2013, 01:41:31 AM
BTW,  we know you grievances, the whole defamation thing, but why this now?
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: dwight on February 15, 2013, 03:38:16 AM
Just annoyed enough to finally do it. There are many reasons and now just seemed a good a time as any.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: gillianren on February 15, 2013, 08:53:47 PM
So you flounced?
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Not Myself on February 16, 2013, 03:26:35 AM
If you want to have "help" not posting there any more, the usual method is to change your password, while not looking at the keyboard, so you can no longer log in.

Don't you have to type it twice?  Then it would have to be cut-and-paste from somewhere else.

Also, that would leave the "forgot my password" avenue open.  Switch the email-of-record over to a purpose-built gmail account, cut-and-paste a random password into BAUT, then delete the gmail account.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: nomuse on February 16, 2013, 03:50:34 AM
Yah...keep it simple, just stop posting.

That's what I do.  I only visit when I'm really bored.  And I also make no real effort to be polite when I'm there.  If I'm going to run afoul of their many, many, many, many, many, many rules, then so be it.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: ka9q on February 16, 2013, 08:01:36 AM
I only participated a few times, while Patrick was active. I quickly discovered the trigger-happy moderation.  I also got the distinct impression that they were giving Patrick a lot more leeway than any of his detractors, and that quickly turned me off.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Count Zero on February 16, 2013, 12:29:59 PM
I haven't posted there in two or three years, and have long-since forgotten my password.  I stop by every so often, but have not had enough urge to post to go through the 'lost password' routine.
Title: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Sus_pilot on February 16, 2013, 06:37:38 PM
 I get a little fed up with JREF sometimes.  Although not related to space, the mods there just locked down a thread where a bunch of us had someone backed into a logical corner.  It's almost as if they want to keep an argument going.

I guess this is my way of saying I appreciate the way LO does his thing here...
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: LunarOrbit on February 16, 2013, 07:29:10 PM
I guess this is my way of saying I appreciate the way LO does his thing here...

Thank you, I appreciate that. I suspect people are more likely to think I don't moderate enough than they are to think I moderate too much. ;)

I have to say that Dwight is a valuable person to have in any forum and I'm glad to have him here. I'm amazed that people at CQ aren't trying to encourage him to stay... in fact they're showing him the door. Unbelievable!
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: dwight on February 18, 2013, 12:12:52 AM
I cant believe the management-speak that forum gave after my Flounce. Rest assured I only flounced after ordering several Mark Gray and Colin Mackellar Videos, spitting at the TV screen for all the fakery I witnessed, in a room full of reverb and not drawing a single breath in the whole 5 minutes using the most gratind and annoying Aussie accent I could muster.

And LO I love you man in all ways imaginable....

PS I did remind them of my nerdlinger claim of being the foremost expert on NASA TV systems (although truth be told, KA9Q seriously knows his stuff). And also, the door didnt hit me in the bum on the way out either. probably lost some sales on "Live TV From Orbit" though.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: pzkpfw on February 18, 2013, 01:49:51 AM
Don't you have to type it twice?  Then it would have to be cut-and-paste from somewhere else.

Random-type-a-type-a-bang-bang
Ctrl + A
Ctrl + C
Tab
Ctrl + V
?

Depending on OS... ?
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: ChrLz on February 18, 2013, 04:36:12 AM
I was pretty much over my relationship with BAUT too, now that it has been submerged into the silly Cosmoquest name.., so I've flounced off as well (http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread.php/142172-How-do-I-end-my-membership-here?p=2108982#post2108982) and offered a little passing Dwight support.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Not Myself on February 18, 2013, 05:15:56 AM
Random-type-a-type-a-bang-bang
Ctrl + A
Ctrl + C
Tab
Ctrl + V
?

Depending on OS... ?

The Ctrl + V step does nothing on the computer I'm trying it on.

I cant believe the management-speak that forum gave after my Flounce.

I can.  You were not adequately sycophantic, which is the one unforgivable sin there.

I've flounced off as well and offered a little passing Dwight support.

This has generated the predictable indignation.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: ChrLz on February 18, 2013, 06:46:09 AM
The Ctrl + V step does nothing on the computer I'm trying it on.
That's because either the Ctrl-A (select everything highlighted) didn't select anything.., or because the password fields don't allow pasting - they often don't.
Quote
I've flounced off as well and offered a little passing Dwight support.
This has generated the predictable indignation.
Moose is retired, yet speaks for 'we'?  and then says:
Quote
..don't rub our noses in 'your' ego(s) and expect kind words in response
Moose, if you happen to read this - do quote the part of my post that was egotistical, there's a good chap... I was quite specific about my other issues with the forum.  And Dwight's ego is quite justified, imo.

And I shouldn't expect kind words?  I'm sure i saw somewhere that 'being nice' was the overriding forum rule.  IMO, the comments made to Dwight were clearly smarm.  Be interested to hear Gillian's opinion, she being the wordsmith here and there...

Anyway, I'm over it - a big part of BAUT died with the CQ takeover.  No longer proud to be there.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: raven on February 18, 2013, 06:59:09 AM
As a member of both forums, this squabbling rather saddens me to be honest.
Yes, they can be rather trigger happy with the moderation over there, but then, they got a much larger community to deal with. Things can easily spiral out of control.
Perhaps the complaints are justified, perhaps not, but either way I am disappointed.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Not Myself on February 18, 2013, 07:06:35 AM
I'm sure i saw somewhere that 'being nice' was the overriding forum rule.

It's more the overridden forum rule . . .
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: raven on February 18, 2013, 07:15:06 AM
On the subject of moderation itself, does this really belong in the hoax section?
Or am I missing something? ???
Title: Re: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Glom on February 18, 2013, 09:09:59 AM
On the subject of moderation itself, does this really belong in the hoax section?
Or am I missing something? ???

Meta-discussion! Infracted!
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: dwight on February 18, 2013, 09:19:00 AM
Actually raven is right. Im so used to posting in this section that I didnt even notice.

LO can you move this into a section called " Flounces "?
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Chew on February 18, 2013, 10:11:12 AM
Actually raven is right. Im so used to posting in this section that I didnt even notice.

LO can you move this into a section called " Flounces "?

If he does that how will we ever keep track of Patrick's sockpuppets?
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: gillianren on February 18, 2013, 12:25:59 PM
Gillian's opinion is that Dwight needs to stop pronouncing his authority.  Dwight, you may be the expert on the subject, but please stop telling us.  As I said over there, I'm not entirely sure how right or wrong your feelings are, though I do understand.  However, every time you mention your standing as a reason that we should care about you, I like you a little less.  I think it gets a little wearing, and eventually, losing the expertise is preferable to keeping the person who keeps reminding you about the expertise.

I don't see this flounce as improving the community, either.  I still care about the community; you haven't posted much over the last two years.  I want things there to get better.  Come to that, I still don't think it's all that bad.  I can see ways that it can be improved, but I can see ways it can be improved here, too.  It's a fact of life that things aren't going to go all the way any one person wants them to, and I've come to terms with that over my life.  (Possibly being a middle child helps.)  I'm also curious as to what response you were actually hoping for.  I saw the thread and thought, "Well, this is pointless."  It won't change anything, and unless Henrik was right and what you really wanted was lots of people telling you to stay, I'm not sure what effect you thought it was going to have.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: pzkpfw on February 18, 2013, 02:24:36 PM
... I'm also curious as to what response you were actually hoping for.  I saw the thread and thought, "Well, this is pointless."  It won't change anything, and unless Henrik was right and what you really wanted was lots of people telling you to stay, I'm not sure what effect you thought it was going to have.

At least in my case, this is what generates the gently teasing - perhaps even slightly dismissive - responses. Don't want to be a member? Well, just stop posting. Starting a thread about "how do I resign" looks to me like a cry for attention. It's the sort of thread flouncy ATM posters make when they see they can't push their non-science.

He who flounces, must accept a little flak.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: cjameshuff on February 18, 2013, 02:47:28 PM
He who flounces, must accept a little flak.

There is otherwise no way to tell a user who has left from one who simply hasn't posted in a while, and no way to know people are leaving if they don't say so. And when a long-time poster does so, not in response to losing an argument but due to objections to the way the administration is handling the forums, the official response should be something more than: "You're replaceable, we've still got thousands of other users. Good bye."
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: pzkpfw on February 18, 2013, 03:13:55 PM
He who flounces, must accept a little flak.

There is otherwise no way to tell a user who has left from one who simply hasn't posted in a while, and no way to know people are leaving if they don't say so. And when a long-time poster does so, not in response to losing an argument but due to objections to the way the administration is handling the forums, the official response should be something more than: "You're replaceable, we've still got thousands of other users. Good bye."

Posting "goodbye" is slightly different than posting "how do I cancel my membership?". The first is simply indicating intent, the second is an attempt to engage in discussion about the leaving.

(There'd be other ways to say "goodbye" too - like changing ones signature to "I'm out of here. Bye". Then it's part of every post made by the member.)

As for official response, what do you suggest? Should the "goodbye" have been greeted by "no! please stay!". That seems to play into the cry for attention. Or should the response have been "what's the problem? can we fix it?". Well, the mods will be well aware of the history of the member, and that will also have a bearing on whether they think the effort to find out the "problem" and "fix it" is possible or not.

The "I'm leaving" thread indicates a decision had already been made. The "officials" are busy enough without trying to talk people back from that position. That thread started with a question, it was answered matter-of-factly and as accurately as possible. It degenerated somewhat, but that wasn't helped by the person "leaving" posting again (which kind of proved (if temporarily) the "sometimes people say they'll leave but they come back" point).

No one forum will please everyone. And if someone wants to effect change, starting with "goodbye" isn't the way to do it.

Dwights first post in that thread was:

Quote
Greetings.

 I find this forum too repressive (1) for my liking. I have not posted here in 2 years (7) except to criticise (2) the overzelaous moderation (3). I would like to terminate my membership but cannot find the means to do so. Please supply the appropriate methods so that I can carry out the procedure as soon and as painless as possible. (4) I have no desire to post a plethora of swear words in order to be banned (5).

 Thank you

 Dwight steven-Boniecki
 Author: Live TV From the Moon (6)

(1) Slight insult.
(2) Seen it. Wasn't impressed.
(3) Slight insult.
(4) Why are you asking this? Just stop posting.
(5) Threat of bad behaviour that will take time for a mod to clean up.
(6) Why is this needing to be mentioned here?
(7) So what's the loss?

I don't see any of that as actually constructive, nor seeming open to discussion about staying, or fixing whatever issues exist. I think the reactions he got were exactly correct in tone.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: LunarOrbit on February 18, 2013, 04:32:24 PM
I think the owners/moderators of CQ would be wise to ask why a valuable member of the forum would want to leave so they can prevent others from doing the same. I know that Dwight isn't the only person frustrated by the moderation there.

And I'm not speaking as a moderator of another forum. I'm not trying to benefit from the situation there. I'm speaking as someone who used to enjoy participating in BABB before the first merger with UT. I saw it become an extremely strict environment that was no longer fun to participate in. They need to loosen up a bit.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Not Myself on February 18, 2013, 08:49:45 PM
It's the sort of thread flouncy ATM posters make when they see they can't push their non-science.

This is one of the things that bothers me most about BAUT/CQ - any complaint at all, and you're in the same category as people who are building perpetual motion machines in their basements.

Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: gillianren on February 18, 2013, 08:53:48 PM
That's okay.  Here, you don't even have to complain to get labeled a closet HB and probably a sock puppet.  Heck, I was once called a closet HB and probably a sock puppet!
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: pzkpfw on February 18, 2013, 11:03:16 PM
It's the sort of thread flouncy ATM posters make when they see they can't push their non-science.

This is one of the things that bothers me most about BAUT/CQ - any complaint at all, and you're in the same category as people who are building perpetual motion machines in their basements.

Meh. My observation stands, I think. Whether you like the comparison or not - in this case - it was a flounce by his own admission.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: LunarOrbit on February 18, 2013, 11:50:35 PM
Yes, Dwight himself called it a flounce, but in I see a huge difference in leaving because you've embarrassed yourself in a debate and leaving because you're frustrated by the nature of the forum. As the moderator of a forum I would be concerned about the latter. If respected members of the forum criticized how I ran things I wouldn't just brush aside their concerns. I might not agree with them, and I might continue to do things the way I think is best, but I wouldn't just say "okay, bye then!"

Allowing Dwight to respond to the person who made the false claims against him in the same thread where those claims were made would have been a simple solution that I'm sure would have satisfied Dwight's concerns. I really don't understand the decision not to allow that. It's not a matter of wanting to sneak in the last word, it's the opportunity to defend his name. Instead those false claims are still visible and could show up in Google searches for Dwight's name, but there is no correction associated with it.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: pzkpfw on February 19, 2013, 12:00:17 AM
Yes, Dwight himself called it a flounce, but in I see a huge difference in leaving because you've embarrassed yourself in a debate and leaving because you're frustrated by the nature of the forum. As the moderator of a forum I would be concerned about the latter. If respected members of the forum criticized how I ran things I wouldn't just brush aside their concerns. I might not agree with them, and I might continue to do things the way I think is best, but I wouldn't just say "okay, bye then!"

Allowing Dwight to respond to the person who made the false claims against him in the same thread where those claims were made would have been a simple solution that I'm sure would have satisfied Dwight's concerns. I really don't understand the decision not to allow that. It's not a matter of wanting to sneak in the last word, it's the opportunity to defend his name. Instead those false claims are still visible and could show up in Google searches for Dwight's name, but there is no correction associated with it.

I read the thread this morning, and I don't see the issue. The poster who made the claims is clearly an angry HB - who is now clearly marked as "banned", so his writings wouldn't be taken too seriously.

Conversely, Dwights' posts are clear, sane, and full of data. Anyone reading the thread would know which way the facts lie.

Allowing a "last word", for whatever reason, simply opens up the moderators of that forum to fielding many further such requests, and the hassle of having to justify decisions that don't go the way of the requester. I'm not at all surprised the decision in this case was "no". Besides, it was suggested to Dwight he could start a new thread to point out what he felt needed to be pointed out. He didn't take that chance.

It was quite some time ago. Time enough to get over it.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: dwight on February 19, 2013, 06:17:27 PM
That incident for me was the beginning of the end, but not the motivating factor for my recent decision. I also must say on record that pkzpfw was completely polite and professional in dealing with my concerns. I certainly have no beef with him. What caused me to leave was what I see as the way overzealous moderating to the point where I was shouting out loud reading what was going on _recently_.

I understand there are requirements for moderation, but everytime I step outside my door I see gold plaques on the pavement reminding me of how much I despise what too much policing can bring- perhaps an over-reaction and perhaps I take such things too personally, but I am true to myself and not the Cosmoquest board.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Captain Swoop on February 20, 2013, 03:13:06 AM
Sad as it is that Dwight has decided not to post on CQ anymore I think the issue of the way the board is moderated compared to Apollohoax is a different subject.

Apollohoax is a specialist one issue board with a tiny ammount of traffic posted by a small number of regular participating members.

LunarOrbit runs the board and Moderates the board very well but if CQ was moderated in the same way it would be chaos..

On here we have a small number of regulars who know each other very well and the occasional Hoax Believer coming in every few weeks as a lone dissenting voice.

On CQ we have ongoing long term feuds, long term Trolls joining under new Sock accounts several times a week, masses of Spammers, ongoing feuds between members, old and new posters pushing their private ATM and at given time multiple reported posts, PMs and coplaints in the queue to be delth with.

CQ Rules aren't that arduous and Mod decisions can be appealed to the Admins or Board Owners.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: ChrLz on February 20, 2013, 06:17:16 AM
I read the thread this morning, and I don't see the issue.
Well, I do.  The thread was summarily closed for no apparent reason - the 'troublemaker' had been banned, and yet for some inexplicable reason all he had said was important enough to be allowed and thus committed to history..  But right then it had to suddenly be closed to anyone else, because....  Well, we don't know.  There's no reason given on thread, not even a message saying that moderators had closed it because of discussions held in the back room.. It just suddenly got locked up.

Quote
The poster who made the claims is clearly an angry HB - who is now clearly marked as "banned", so his writings wouldn't be taken too seriously.
Well, nobody takes anything seriously on the Internet, nobody ever uses old 'data' to back their new claims, and no new HB would ever quote an old angry HB..  Sheesh - if this is meant to be justification for the thread closure, it could surely be used to suggest that the entire thread be wiped...

Quote
Conversely, Dwights' posts are clear, sane, and full of data.
Which makes the refusal to reopen it even more puzzling / daft.  As for the silly suggestion that he should instead start a new thread to refer back to that one..  Yeah, that's how to run a forum and keep things easy to find and on-topic and coherent!  :o

Quote
Anyone reading the thread would know which way the facts lie.
Yeah, anyone who wasn't an HB.  And such a person would never misquote Moonfunk's final words like:
Quote
Dw... you are mistaken... Dw... and I have come to an agreement... Links to a website our esteemed member Dw... helped create have been posted and explained.
No, no-one could possibly mis/quote/read that stuff as if Dwight was supporting Moonfunk.  Everyone on the Internet plays fair and reasonable at all times....

And there are several other references that Moonfunk made on that thread that were not able to be challenged because of the unexplained closure.  And I'm struggling to see any 'unkind' comments from all the other respondents, so the closure remains a mystery to me.  Indeed, it is clear that closure happened within hours of the banning - so anyone like me on the far side of the planet wouldn't have had any possible way to respond to anything...

Quote
Allowing a "last word", for whatever reason, simply opens up the moderators of that forum to fielding many further such requests, and the hassle of having to justify decisions that don't go the way of the requester.
Rubbish - the mod's can completely ignore future requests if they wish, or gee whiz, maybe they could just look at each case on its merits...  Many, many threads are left open for additions and corrections after the thread originator has been banned, and imnsho, that sort of thread should only really be closed if:
- the topic and all related issues/claims are comprehensively dealt with
- it degenerates into silly jokes or bashing of the now banned person.

AFAICS, and correct me if I'm wrong, Moonfunk was the only problem poster on that entire thread.  Sorta ironic that the person he impugned was the one prevented from responding, on the supposed basis that lots of other requests for re-opening had been made and the imaginary floodgates mustn't be opened.

Quote
I'm not at all surprised the decision in this case was "no".
Neither am I - that's just one small aspect of why the-forum-formerly-known-as-BAUT-and-now-horribly-named-Cosmoquest has lost its way.

Quote
It was quite some time ago. Time enough to get over it.
On the Internet, everything old is new again..

Mega's quote was on the money:
Quote
This is one of the things that bothers me most about BAUT/CQ - any complaint at all, and you're in the same category as people who are building perpetual motion machines in their basements.
Pzkpfw, you..
Quote
It's the sort of thread flouncy ATM posters make when they see they can't push their non-science.
and Swift..
Quote
You will be lost among the 160,000+ members
and Henrik..
Quote
a very large proportion of the goodbye posts is a cry for a chorus of posts telling the poster to stay
and Jim..
Quote
there have been Members in the past who made the "..I'm leaving.." post and started posting again shortly after.
and Moose..
Quote
don't rub our noses in 'your' ego(s) and expect kind words
..are all doing precisely that - demeaning posters as flouncing egotistical tinfoilhatters.  And there are current and former moderators in that list..   It's not a good look.  BTW, if you would like to see how it *should* have been handled, then I think Strange's post (http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread.php/142172-How-do-I-end-my-membership-here?p=2108984#post2108984) was the sort of BE NICE post that you guys keep saying is the only basic rule that needs to be remembered...

I'm very disappointed with the way this was handled.  And still waiting for Moose to explain what was egotistical in my post.. Indeed, Pzkpfw, would you like to point at where I or Dwight have pushed non-science?  Do you believe we will flounce back?

Or was that .. just possibly .. an unwarranted generalisation?  Or just a little harmless tease, like all those other examples?
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Captain Swoop on February 20, 2013, 06:21:16 AM
If the OP of a thread in Conspiracy or ATM is banned for whatever reason it is usual to close the thread as he is no longer there to defend the OP.

Dwight was given the option of and could have started his own thread to defend his position. He diedn't for 2 years.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Captain Swoop on February 20, 2013, 06:25:31 AM
Quote
Which makes the refusal to reopen it even more puzzling / daft.  As for the silly suggestion that he should instead start a new thread to refer back to that one..  Yeah, that's how to run a forum and keep things easy to find and on-topic and coherent!
For good reasons not to keep a thread open after the OP has left look at some of the threads oin the Hoax Forum on this site. There are two long thread where the last 8 or 9 pages have turned into general HB discussions rather than being on topic. With no reply or input from the OP threads always wander and go off topic.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: cjameshuff on February 20, 2013, 06:47:48 AM
For good reasons not to keep a thread open after the OP has left look at some of the threads oin the Hoax Forum on this site. There are two long thread where the last 8 or 9 pages have turned into general HB discussions rather than being on topic. With no reply or input from the OP threads always wander and go off topic.

Yes, how terrible. People are actively discussing matters as they come up.

Such threads serve as fertile ground for discussions of new topics, often ones that are highly informative about subjects related to the thread. If a sidetrack becomes excessive, it can be split off to another thread, and if it doesn't, it didn't deserve a thread of its own. On CosmoQuest, a systematic attempt is instead made to salt this fertile ground.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: ChrLz on February 20, 2013, 06:50:30 AM
Quote
Which makes the refusal to reopen it even more puzzling / daft.  As for the silly suggestion that he should instead start a new thread to refer back to that one..  Yeah, that's how to run a forum and keep things easy to find and on-topic and coherent!
For good reasons not to keep a thread open after the OP has left look at some of the threads oin the Hoax Forum on this site. There are two long thread where the last 8 or 9 pages have turned into general HB discussions rather than being on topic. With no reply or input from the OP threads always wander and go off topic.
Hang on... You're now criticising this forum's practices???  Do you see anyone else here doing that - quite the contrary I think..
Or are you referring to BAUT, where indeed there are threads that don't seem to suffer this ban+immediate closure thing?  And if so, how come those threads at BAUT didn't suffer the 'automatic' fate?  It almost appears there are grave inconsistencies, and this practice is decided upon a whim.

Well, may I suggest that the 'whim' approach (at BAUT) be changed as follows:
- give it at least a couple of days after banning if only to allow timezone fairness
- make any closure dependent on the content of the thread - in most of these surely some moderator has already been posting and has at least a vague grasp of what has transpired, and in particular if there have been claims made that need refutation
- wait until people misbehave

I mean, isn't some of that what happened in the examples you just gave?  Is that really more onerous than immediate closure and angry potential respondents?

I can recall several BAUT examples where I've been bloody annoyed at threads being closed instantly thus preventing my presumably unimportant antipodean reply.. imo, you are unfairly treating those on the other side of the planet.


But wait, I can see there could be a problem.. what with the HUGE posting load that is the BAUT/CQ Conspiracy Theories forum - what's the average currently - one or two posts per day? :)
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Captain Swoop on February 20, 2013, 07:19:51 AM
If people want changes on Cosmoquest then there is a feedback section to discuss such things.



What is wrong with me bringing up this 'forums practices' on this Forum?
I wasn't criticising the practice, If there wasn't any 'meandering' of the discussion there would be days and days with no activity on the thread.

Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: ChrLz on February 20, 2013, 07:49:22 AM
If people want changes on Cosmoquest then there is a feedback section to discuss such things.
You mean like this (http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread.php/125329-Over-moderation?p=1976967#post1976967)?

Gee, perhaps I should try that...oh wait, that was ME.  Funnily enough, many people* agreed with me but it was argued against, because, as Jim stated:
Quote
It would be great if we could leave a thread open for reasoned, meaningful discussions. But, as evidenced by the recent flurry of threads by one Member in CT
ONE member.  Just ONE, one who could have been suspended/banned..  So, because of that one member back then, and on a forum that is close to dead anyway, and completely ignoring the complaints about unfairness to those in different time zones..  you wonder why there is a bit of flak in the air?

Quote
What is wrong with me bringing up this 'forums practices' on this Forum?
Nothing much, except that:
- you said "I think the issue of the way the board is moderated compared to Apollohoax is a different subject."
- you might find yourself in a very tiny minority - I think LO's efforts at this site are exemplary and I don't think I'm alone..  {where's my $5, LO}

Quote
I wasn't criticising the practice, If there wasn't any 'meandering' of the discussion there would be days and days with no activity on the thread.
? I'm sorry but I don't get your point.. You seem to have changed sides..

* Added PS.. not that I want to name drop {cough-Jay-cough} but look above and below my linked post (http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread.php/125329-Over-moderation?p=1976967#post1976967) for others who seemed to agree, at least back then..
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: BazBear on February 20, 2013, 10:10:29 AM
That's okay.  Here, you don't even have to complain to get labeled a closet HB and probably a sock puppet.  Heck, I was once called a closet HB and probably a sock puppet!
Someone accused you Gillianren? Wow. I can understand why people get suspicious, but the hair trigger some have is a bit ridiculous. After all, not every new poster is a Tekeli etc. sock.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Echnaton on February 20, 2013, 10:30:57 AM
Am I the only one that is getting tired of this bickering about the moderation at CQ?
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Bob B. on February 20, 2013, 03:26:37 PM
Am I the only one that is getting tired of this bickering about the moderation at CQ?

Yes.  I find it tiring to read people bitch about a situation that they're voluntarily putting themselves into.  If it's so bad over there, just stop going. 
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: pzkpfw on February 20, 2013, 04:17:32 PM
I read the thread this morning, and I don't see the issue.
Well, I do.  The thread was summarily closed for no apparent reason - the 'troublemaker' had been banned, and yet for some inexplicable reason all he had said was important enough to be allowed and thus committed to history..  But right then it had to suddenly be closed to anyone else, because....  Well, we don't know.  There's no reason given on thread, not even a message saying that moderators had closed it because of discussions held in the back room.. It just suddenly got locked up.

The lack of a specific posted reason for the lock is a small ommission. Usually/often/sometimes such closures are explained. I forget the context of this one, but in any case fail to see the big deal.

Sure, every thing the HB said was committed to history (CQ doesn't delete HB posts just because they are HB posts) but that thread is full of rebuttal - such as Dwights posts; and all that rebuttal is committed to history too. I really do think you care too much about getting in the last word.

Quote
The poster who made the claims is clearly an angry HB - who is now clearly marked as "banned", so his writings wouldn't be taken too seriously.
Well, nobody takes anything seriously on the Internet, nobody ever uses old 'data' to back their new claims, and no new HB would ever quote an old angry HB..  Sheesh - if this is meant to be justification for the thread closure, it could surely be used to suggest that the entire thread be wiped...

Not really sure what you're getting at here. I'm not "using it" as justification for thread closure, I'm "using it" as justification for not getting bent out of shape over the content being there. Besides, even if the thread hadn't been closed, there'd be nothing stopping another HB selectively quoting what they wanted to quote. Wipe the whole thread? There's that "something wrong on the internet" thing again.

Quote
Conversely, Dwights' posts are clear, sane, and full of data.
Which makes the refusal to reopen it even more puzzling / daft.  As for the silly suggestion that he should instead start a new thread to refer back to that one..  Yeah, that's how to run a forum and keep things easy to find and on-topic and coherent!  :o

Not sure why that makes the refusal to re-open the thread daft. What he'd already said (and said very well) seems "enough". Why the need to get in the last word?

I agree with your sarcasm about "on-topic and coherent", but in the context of the policy not to re-open threads for "last words" the "start a new thread" idea is just a simple compromise. A simple compromise is all that's needed to defuse most of these disagreements.

Quote
Anyone reading the thread would know which way the facts lie.
Yeah, anyone who wasn't an HB.  And such a person would never misquote Moonfunk's final words like:
Quote
Dw... you are mistaken... Dw... and I have come to an agreement... Links to a website our esteemed member Dw... helped create have been posted and explained.
No, no-one could possibly mis/quote/read that stuff as if Dwight was supporting Moonfunk.  Everyone on the Internet plays fair and reasonable at all times....

I don't see how reopening the thread would have made any of that better. Those dastardly HB's could still selectively quote what they wanted. If a "last word" had been added, who's to say an HB would still link to earlier bogus claims? Who's to say an HB would read through to the end to see that "last word"?

And there are several other references that Moonfunk made on that thread that were not able to be challenged because of the unexplained closure.  And I'm struggling to see any 'unkind' comments from all the other respondents, so the closure remains a mystery to me.  Indeed, it is clear that closure happened within hours of the banning - so anyone like me on the far side of the planet wouldn't have had any possible way to respond to anything...

When I was a mod, I was on the same side of the planet as you, so any threads I closed were closed in your time zone - and should people on the other side of the World complain about that?

Sometimes HB threads do get left open for a while after the HB has been banned. Those threads mostly just turn into a bunch of people piling on with the same stuff. I don't see that as particularly useful. Also, in those cases, sometimes an HB will come along and kick-start the thread again with further claims; which doesn't help the stuff you were being sarcastic about earlier (that I agreed with) and generate mod work in splitting and such.

So, HB gets banned, threads generally get closed; people need to accept that "something is wrong on the internet". I can see why people want such threads left open for continued rebuttal, but having been a mod over there and had to deal with the day to day effort of keeping it in good running order, I think the policy is fine.

Quote
Allowing a "last word", for whatever reason, simply opens up the moderators of that forum to fielding many further such requests, and the hassle of having to justify decisions that don't go the way of the requester.
Rubbish - the mod's can completely ignore future requests if they wish, or gee whiz, maybe they could just look at each case on its merits...  Many, many threads are left open for additions and corrections after the thread originator has been banned, and imnsho, that sort of thread should only really be closed if:
- the topic and all related issues/claims are comprehensively dealt with
- it degenerates into silly jokes or bashing of the now banned person.

A request was made in this case to re-open the thread. So we did what you asked us to do ("look at each case on its merits").

We just didn't give the answer you'd have liked.

AFAICS, and correct me if I'm wrong, Moonfunk was the only problem poster on that entire thread.  Sorta ironic that the person he impugned was the one prevented from responding, on the supposed basis that lots of other requests for re-opening had been made and the imaginary floodgates mustn't be opened.

"supposed basis" - the mods of that forum know what goes on or not. Are you saying they lie?

As I said, I've read through that thread and I don't really see that Dwight was impugned particularly badly, nor in a way that needed a "last word". Someone is either going to read the thread properly and understand all posts, or not. A "last word" won't change that.

Quote
I'm not at all surprised the decision in this case was "no".
Neither am I - that's just one small aspect of why the-forum-formerly-known-as-BAUT-and-now-horribly-named-Cosmoquest has lost its way.

I hate the new name, too. The merger was part of why I took a break (permanent?) from being a mod there. Still, it's the same old thing from me - no one forum will work for all participants. I don't think there is one perfect form and style that will suit everyone.

So, some of the people who leave the forum will be good, intelligent, nice people with lots of knowledge, like Dwight. But all those good attributes don't necessarily mean that their departure is something that must be prevented at all costs, or that the reasons for their deperture are by definition things that need to be changed.

Quote
It was quite some time ago. Time enough to get over it.
On the Internet, everything old is new again..

Um, OK?

Mega's quote was on the money:
Quote
This is one of the things that bothers me most about BAUT/CQ - any complaint at all, and you're in the same category as people who are building perpetual motion machines in their basements.
Pzkpfw, you..
Quote
It's the sort of thread flouncy ATM posters make when they see they can't push their non-science.
and Swift..
Quote
You will be lost among the 160,000+ members
and Henrik..
Quote
a very large proportion of the goodbye posts is a cry for a chorus of posts telling the poster to stay
and Jim..
Quote
there have been Members in the past who made the "..I'm leaving.." post and started posting again shortly after.
and Moose..
Quote
don't rub our noses in 'your' ego(s) and expect kind words
..are all doing precisely that - demeaning posters as flouncing egotistical tinfoilhatters.  And there are current and former moderators in that list..   It's not a good look.  BTW, if you would like to see how it *should* have been handled, then I think Strange's post (http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread.php/142172-How-do-I-end-my-membership-here?p=2108984#post2108984) was the sort of BE NICE post that you guys keep saying is the only basic rule that needs to be remembered...

Meh. You are expecting perfection from people that you don't expect for yourself. Most of those replies came after the issue was pushed, and really, were invited. They may not have been 100% polite, but I think they were all well within bounds. Some of them I don't even know why you point them out. Dwight himself called his leaving a "flounce".

I'm very disappointed with the way this was handled.  And still waiting for Moose to explain what was egotistical in my post.. Indeed, Pzkpfw, would you like to point at where I or Dwight have pushed non-science?  Do you believe we will flounce back?

Or was that .. just possibly .. an unwarranted generalisation?  Or just a little harmless tease, like all those other examples?

I don't recall enough of your posts to know one way or the other. I don't recall Dwight ever pushing non-science. Why do you ask? How's that relevant? I must have missed something.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: pzkpfw on February 20, 2013, 04:19:14 PM
Am I the only one that is getting tired of this bickering about the moderation at CQ?

Yes.  I find it tiring to read people bitch about a situation that they're voluntarily putting themselves into.  If it's so bad over there, just stop going.

Which was the initial reply to the "how do I end my membership" question.


Starting threads about it there and here, has invited all this.

But yes, enough. Dwight himself has made a very nice post in this thread that I am going to consider a "closure", and this'll be my last post in this thread.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Not Myself on February 20, 2013, 09:36:07 PM
Am I the only one that is getting tired of this bickering about the moderation at CQ?

Yes.  I find it tiring to read people bitch about a situation that they're voluntarily putting themselves into.  If it's so bad over there, just stop going.

I take it the first word should have been "no" instead of "yes".  But, we could apply the same wisdom on a thread-by-thread basis - if the thread is that bad, just stop reading it and posting in it.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Glom on February 21, 2013, 09:06:58 AM
Conspiracy discussion at BAUT/BABB was at its height when we didn't have mods closing threads by default. All this talk about the after discussion being pointless really is the mods getting carried away with themselves.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: RAF on February 21, 2013, 09:55:33 AM
But yes, enough. Dwight himself has made a very nice post in this thread that I am going to consider a "closure", and this'll be my last post in this thread.

Good, because you're not going to like what I have to say...

It was quite some time ago. Time enough to get over it.

I simply can not believe this. i've noticed that numerous others have said essentially the same thing...

What gives anyone the "right" to say how long, or to what degree someone else should be "upset" about something?

Talk about irrational rationalization....sheesh.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: RAF on February 21, 2013, 10:16:12 AM
...demeaning posters as flouncing egotistical tinfoilhatters.  And there are current and former moderators in that list..   It's not a good look.

Although I was one foot out the door when all this happened, it certainly "helped" mecome  to a decision re. my further participation there.

A very poor showing for those posters ChrLz quotes above...they should all be embarrassed, yet, I'll bet to a person, they are not.

Lets just say, I am very disappointed...
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: RAF on February 21, 2013, 10:19:38 AM
Am I the only one that is getting tired of this bickering about the moderation at CQ?

Yes.  I find it tiring to read people bitch about a situation that they're voluntarily putting themselves into.  If it's so bad over there, just stop going. 

Thanks...I did just that.


Perhaps, though, you should take your own advice...If you, or anyone, "tire" of people "bitching", then just don't read that thread. :)
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Echnaton on February 21, 2013, 10:49:01 AM
Perhaps, though, you should take your own advice...If you, or anyone, "tire" of people "bitching", then just don't read that thread. :)

Unlike CQ this is a small community with a long history of accommodative moderation that allows meta-discussion by established members.  I chose to honor that tradition rather than suggest that people should not participate.  The latter being something that is more akin to CQ the AH.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Bob B. on February 21, 2013, 11:03:30 AM
I take it the first word should have been "no" instead of "yes".

 :-[

Quite  correct.  For some reason I was hearing in my head "does anyone agree with me" rather than "Am I the only one".


Perhaps, though, you should take your own advice...If you, or anyone, "tire" of people "bitching", then just don't read that thread. :)

For the most part I'm already doing that, though I do occasionally like to skim though a thread to see if anything appears that interests me.

It's not the bitching per se that bothers me.  It that fact that people are bitching about something that they keep voluntarily going back to.  It's like somebody beating their head against a wall and then complaining that it hurts.  I have no no sympathy for someone when the solution to the problem is to simply stop doing it.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: RAF on February 21, 2013, 11:18:05 AM
It's not the bitching per se that bothers me.  It that fact that people are bitching about something that they keep voluntarily going back to.  It's like somebody beating their head against a wall and then complaining that it hurts.

I understand. It's one of the reasons I have waited a week and a half since posting anything there, before posting anything here about it....I needed time to "decompress" from all boards.

Heck, it was only this morning that I finally decided that I would continue posting here, as I was fully prepared to simply stop posting at all to internet forums.

Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Glom on February 21, 2013, 02:56:18 PM
I could never flounce though. I have too much intellect invested. Just search polyamoury there. I'm sure the only post to mention it is mine. And it's my finest post.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Not Myself on February 21, 2013, 05:18:36 PM
I could never flounce though. I have too much intellect invested. Just search polyamoury there. I'm sure the only post to mention it is mine. And it's my finest post.

And it's in a thread called "OK How does Chemistry Work?"
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: ChrLz on February 22, 2013, 05:51:39 AM
To Bob B:
Quote
I find it tiring to read people bitch about a situation that they're voluntarily putting themselves into.
As has been pointed out by others, that is a tad ironic..  But when added to this:
Quote
.. they keep voluntarily going back..
..like somebody beating their head against a wall..
 ..stop doing it.
..I've got to ask the obvious:
Who keeps 'voluntarily going back' and repeatedly 'doing it'?  And what exactly is .. 'it'?
 

To Pzkpfw:
Quote
Why the need to get in the last word?
Why the need to PREVENT the 'last word'?  What are discussion forums for?  If the 'last word' is ontopic, relevant and heaven forbid, corrects something, or if a respected and knowledgeable poster feels slighted..  I'm not sure why the 'last word' is such an evil/terrifying/undignified concept..

Quote
When I was a mod, I was on the same side of the planet as you, so any threads I closed were closed in your time zone - and should people on the other side of the World complain about that?
Yes, they should, if there was more to be usefully said... and more importantly Yes, they have.  Remember that link I posted, that you didn't refer to?  In it, here's Jay Windley (JayUtah):
Quote
Lately.. I find little more than a wall of locked threads {in CT}...thread closure seems to be the rule, often leaving misbehaving claimants to have the last word and precluding further enlightening discussion.
..{BAUT is} getting a reputation as a place where even productive debate is stifled, and where skeptics don't even want to go.
.. Jason Thompson:
Quote
.. thread closure seems to be an excessive response.. very frustrating to contribute to a thread, then come back to it and find that you have been insulted/challenged or even simply responded to or questioned but you have no way to respond.
.. CJSF:
Quote
an increasing number of veteran posters have been saying is that things seem to have gotten more and more restrictive.. when someone as well spoken, rational and fair as Jay speaks up against it, I would listen to him.
.. caveman1917:
Quote
.. everyone is thrown out of the room and the room is locked. Why?
.. Paul Beardsley:
Quote
.. it is getting a bit stifling in here. I am very relieved that somebody of as high a profile, and commanding as much respect, as Jay has commented on it.
.. sts60:
Quote
.. the CT subforum.. is overmoderated to the point of choking it off. Thread after thread is closed before posters like me, who aren't on every day, have a chance to engage at all.
Those quotes are all from just the first 2 pages of a 17 page thread (http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread.php/125329-Over-moderation)..  So, maybe it's not just Dwight and me..?

And another observation from Jay:
Quote
At this point it seems that more moderation is being exerted in shaping the debate rather than keeping it from jumping the shark. If you want to attract the contributions of well-educated and thoughtful people, treat them as such.


Pzkpfw:
Quote
this'll be my last post in this thread
I won't post the very obvious, slightly ironic response..  :D

Anyway, go take a long hard look at the CT section over there, and then re-read the comments above by people I tend to think are the sort of folks worth listening to..  The CosmoBaut CT (and ATM) forums are not exactly broiling with activity - but I'm sure the mod's know best..


PS - Glom, I remember reading that little chemistry essay you wrote and thinking it was a very effective set of analogies, in a world where analogies are routinely misapplied horribly..  Nice work! And I can't really flounce either - I'm always ChrLz or chrLzs - nothing else seems right.

Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: cjameshuff on February 22, 2013, 10:12:36 AM
Yes.  I find it tiring to read people bitch about a situation that they're voluntarily putting themselves into.  If it's so bad over there, just stop going.

As pointed out, you needn't subject yourself to such a discussion if you don't like it.


It's not the bitching per se that bothers me.  It that fact that people are bitching about something that they keep voluntarily going back to.  It's like somebody beating their head against a wall and then complaining that it hurts.  I have no no sympathy for someone when the solution to the problem is to simply stop doing it.

So they should just quietly and meekly abandon a forum with no objection when the administration starts to go off the rails? Some "solution".
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Selfsim on February 23, 2013, 04:28:44 PM
Well, hi there folks!  :)

I was watching from afar, so I thought I might drop in and say 'hello'.
Not speaking personally, but it would seem "The Thrill is Gone" (http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/bbking/thethrillisgone.html) at CQ, eh?
The question is … "Was it absolutely necessary to deliberately kill it?"


Cheers
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Not Myself on February 23, 2013, 10:47:44 PM
I have now seen one individual twice state that Dwight made a threat to post a lot of bad language.  Here is this "threat", in context.

Quote
I find this forum too repressive for my liking. I have not posted here in 2 years except to criticise the overzelaous moderation. I would like to terminate my membership but cannot find the means to do so. Please supply the appropriate methods so that I can carry out the procedure as soon and as painless as possible. I have no desire to post a plethora of swear words in order to be banned.

The characterisation of this as a "threat" came from a former moderator, so I wonder if when people have been suspended or banned for making "threats", it was done so under this rather expansive definition.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: ChrLz on February 24, 2013, 01:05:31 AM
That would be the same person who said Dwight had been "insulting" (twice over mind you!!) with his comments about the forum being repressive and that the moderation is over-zealous..  Which is exactly what Jay Utah and others have said, but from Dwight they are 'insults'?

Toughen up, I say.  (While pointing out the delicious irony, or is it hypocrisy..?)

I note that the smarm (I'm being kind) continues, eg this gem:
Quote
Oh good grief... It's a passive-aggressive, childish little display of attention seeking.
..from Buttercup of all people, and obviously ok with the mod's..

Oh well.

I just point to the 'success' they are having with the Conspiracy Theory forum there, which now appears to be floundering.  No posts since 19 Feb.  Of the 25 or so posts in all of February, 3 were to close threads and several were from one sockpuppet...  Maybe it's just a temporary downturn, and it's not like the CT and ATM forums are given much priority over there.

Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Not Myself on February 24, 2013, 02:45:55 AM
I note that the smarm (I'm being kind) continues, eg this gem:
Quote
Oh good grief... It's a passive-aggressive, childish little display of attention seeking.
..from Buttercup of all people, and obviously ok with the mod's..

Oh well.

I've always found the definition of an insult to be rather flexible there.

I also find the board quite flexible regarding evidentiary standards.  Some claims must be proven, others are to be accepted by default, without any evidence at all, unless someone proves them wrong.  Although it's not the only board where I've observed that.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: cjameshuff on February 24, 2013, 11:55:40 AM
I've always found the definition of an insult to be rather flexible there.

Personally, I find many of the statements of the present and former forum administrators and moderators in that thread to be unprofessional and insulting to the entire membership, and a clear demonstration that Dwight's departure was not just some attention-seeking flounce.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Bob B. on February 24, 2013, 06:05:17 PM
And what exactly is .. 'it'?

Going back to Cosmoquest (or whatever it is called now) knowing full well that you're going to get pissed off by the moderation.

As has been pointed out by others, that is a tad ironic.

Why?  I'm not putting myself into a situation that's pissing me off.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: cjameshuff on February 24, 2013, 08:23:03 PM
Why?  I'm not putting myself into a situation that's pissing me off.

It's one that's at least "tiring" enough to make you complain about it. I'd say the situation instead being bad enough to "piss you off" would actually make complaining more reasonable.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Not Myself on February 24, 2013, 09:51:22 PM
Why don't we organise by thread?

We could have a thread complaining about BAUT/CQ.

Then we could have another thread complaining about the complaining.

Then we could have a third thread complaining that those complaining about the complaining shouldn't be complaining.

The we could have a fourth thread complaining about that.

I don't think it has gone to a fifth level yet, but maybe I just didn't notice.

In fact, we could just rededicate the whole board to this theme.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Bob B. on February 25, 2013, 01:04:52 AM
It's one that's at least "tiring" enough to make you complain about it. I'd say the situation instead being bad enough to "piss you off" would actually make complaining more reasonable.

I think you’re missing the point.  If you read what I wrote in post #55 you’ll see that I don’t have a problem with complaining per se.  Everyone complains about something every now and then, just as I did.  I just find it odd that people keep going back to the source of the frustration/aggravation and then come here to complain about it.

Suppose that you have a friend that keeps going to a restaurant that is notorious for having bad service, and every time he goes he complains to you about the bad experience.  Surely the first couple times it’s no big deal, but after hearing the complaints time after time, don’t you think you’ve earned the right to say to your friend, “Look, if the service is so bad, just stop going.  But if you do return, knowing what the service is like, please don’t complain to me about it”?

As pointed out, you needn't subject yourself to such a discussion if you don't like it.

I’m not reading nor discussing any of the posts complaining about Cosmoquest moderation.  I’m discussing the act of complaining about Cosmoquest moderation.  There’s a difference.  Until Echnaton introduced the topic, I was not a participant.

So they should just quietly and meekly abandon a forum with no objection when the administration starts to go off the rails?

You can certainly object but, in the end, it’s not your forum.  If you don’t like the way those in charge run it, then a prudent course of action would be to stop participating.

Some "solution".

So your solution it to complain in this forum?
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Not Myself on February 25, 2013, 04:09:37 AM
Suppose that you have a friend that keeps going to a restaurant that is notorious for having bad service, and every time he goes he complains to you about the bad experience.  Surely the first couple times it’s no big deal, but after hearing the complaints time after time, don’t you think you’ve earned the right to say to your friend, “Look, if the service is so bad, just stop going.  But if you do return, knowing what the service is like, please don’t complain to me about it”?

I suspect you're going to have that one tossed right back at you, but I'll let someone else do the tossing.

You can certainly object but, in the end, it’s not your forum.  If you don’t like the way those in charge run it, then a prudent course of action would be to stop participating.

I believe that's exactly what the person who started this thread plans to do.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Bob B. on February 25, 2013, 10:37:58 AM
Suppose that you have a friend that keeps going to a restaurant that is notorious for having bad service, and every time he goes he complains to you about the bad experience.  Surely the first couple times it’s no big deal, but after hearing the complaints time after time, don’t you think you’ve earned the right to say to your friend, “Look, if the service is so bad, just stop going.  But if you do return, knowing what the service is like, please don’t complain to me about it”?

I suspect you're going to have that one tossed right back at you, but I'll let someone else do the tossing.

Why?  I complained exactly once in direct response to something posted by Echnaton.  Since then I've only responded to questions and comments directed specifically at me, which is what I'm suppose to do, is it not?
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: raven on February 25, 2013, 11:09:48 AM
Geeze, we are still talking about this? If one somehow can not simply resist the urge to post, ask a moderator to ban your account.
Frankly, the whole thing comes across as very childish, and that saddens me greatly.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Not Myself on February 25, 2013, 12:34:10 PM
Geeze, we are still talking about this? If one somehow can not simply resist the urge to post, ask a moderator to ban your account.

I think that's more or less what the OP did, although not quite for the reason you cite.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Not Myself on February 25, 2013, 12:41:17 PM
Why?  I complained exactly once in direct response to something posted by Echnaton.  Since then I've only responded to questions and comments directed specifically at me, which is what I'm suppose to do, is it not?

I guess we have a different system of counting, but no matter, I'm taking your advice.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Selfsim on February 26, 2013, 03:18:44 PM
I notice another CQ/Faq thread has started up: "Have we lost members since upgrade?"
Yet another member appears to be throwing in the towel, and another is acknowledged as 'missing-in-action'.
(It may just be a temporary issue, however ...)
Cheers
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: RAF on February 26, 2013, 05:27:20 PM
I notice another CQ/Faq thread has started up: "Have we lost members since upgrade?"
Yet another member appears to be throwing in the towel, and another is acknowledged as 'missing-in-action'.
(It may just be a temporary issue, however ...)
Cheers

Yeah....looks like Paul Beardsley is gone....haven't seen where Djellison has logged in since the 5th.

As far as the number of posters online is concerned, I think that is an upgrade "glitch". 
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Glom on February 26, 2013, 06:26:29 PM
Is it still working? Tapatalk keeps failing to connect.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: LunarOrbit on February 26, 2013, 08:30:59 PM
Is it still working? Tapatalk keeps failing to connect.

Tapatalk requires that a plugin be installed. They probably just haven't gotten around to re-installing it since the upgrade.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: solfe on February 26, 2013, 09:50:38 PM
I usually say the words "PR Marketroids" with disdain, but all the goofy junk at ...the CQ, they... could serious use some PR and marketing skills. The owners keep changing stuff with little or no explanation of who, what or why. They seem to understand the when and how part, but when they pull trigger on new stuff, the guys on the front line (the day to day mods and admins) don't even seem to know what is happening.

I can appreciate what is being done, why it is done, and I enjoy talking to the people invest time and energy into it to keep it working, but clearly someone does not understand that they have this beast of a board running 24/7/365 for years on end. Even in the apparently reduced state, it has more traction that all of the other social parts of CQ combined.  It is almost like the owners expect it to be exactly like twitter or G+ feed.

Well, I have spoken my peace. I perhaps I will make myself at home here, but I can't see myself abandoning the BAUT just yet.

Solfe

edited between the ...'s for a tiny bit of clarity.
Title: Re: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Glom on March 01, 2013, 07:32:12 AM
Is it still working? Tapatalk keeps failing to connect.

Tapatalk requires that a plugin be installed. They probably just haven't gotten around to re-installing it since the upgrade.

Still not sorted so I can't access the forum. If they carry on at this rate, they'll have no-one left to moderate.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: ChrLz on March 01, 2013, 04:25:03 PM
I think you’re missing the point.
No, Bob, I think that's you.

First up, you keep generalising - I asked you to clarify what 'it' was and WHO was doing 'it', namely going back to BAUT/CQ to post further.  But you only answered the first question...

So, did Dwight or I go back and post?  Have we 'flounced' back?  I can't speak for Dwight, but I don't think he has, and I certainly have not.  (FTR, I've logged in there a couple of times since, but ONLY to clean up PM's - and it now appears my login no longer works anyway - whether they've banned me or from the system changeover, I dunno.. my apologies to anyone over there who may have pm'ed me..)

Given that, Bob, who are you directing your comments at?

Quote
I don’t have a problem with complaining per se... I just find it odd that people keep going back
As I said above, please be specific to avoid strawman inferences..

Quote
So your solution it to complain in this forum?
? We often discuss other forums here.  If you feel that shouldn't happen, may I suggest you talk to LO? ..rather than complain about it here, if you get my irony..   ;D

Frankly, I think BAUT has lost at least part of its focus and been swallowed by CQ, and you only have to look at the CT and ATM forums there to see the rather strong evidence.  I used to quote BAUT far and wide as a reference.  I no longer do so.  Sure, ATM and CT was never a prime focus of BAUT and their raison d'etre has now drifted elsewhere.  To me that's interesting, a little depressing.. and worthy of some discussion..
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Glom on March 01, 2013, 04:42:34 PM
It seems CQ brings out the worst in people these days. Probably best to just forget about the place, or at least enjoy the old threads.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Selfsim on March 01, 2013, 07:27:56 PM
Well, I think I actually agree with Glom ... and extending the original comment made, I think that with the apparent retreat of systemic, (or organised), ATM, CQ/BAUT moderation has found itself without its primary purpose. Moderation now seems to have lowered its tolerance thresholds, in order to maintain its purpose in life .. even to the extent it also appears to now be eating its own kind.
I also think another side-effect might be 'the thrill is gone' syndrome for the expats(??)
This might also strike a note of resonance here, although it would be inappropriate for me to comment on this .. but I am curious about it.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: ka9q on March 01, 2013, 11:57:44 PM
C'mon, guys...
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: LunarOrbit on March 02, 2013, 12:53:19 AM
No, Bob, I think that's you.

First up, you keep generalising - I asked you to clarify what 'it' was
and WHO was doing 'it', namely going back to BAUT/CQ to post further.  But you only answered the first question...

I was hoping this thread would be used for constructive discussion, but it looks like you just want to argue. Both sides have the right to express their opinion. You don't have to like what the other person says, but you will remain civil. Any further bickering over this will result in the thread being locked.

I agree with Bob that if people are truly bothered by CQ (or any other forum, including this one) then they have to ability to stop going there without any assistance from the moderators. There is also no need to announce that you're leaving. However, I do understand why people are unhappy with CQ and I believe that by announcing their departure they are hoping to draw attention to the problem, not themselves. If CQ self destructs that is their problem, not mine, but at least they can't say people didn't try to warn them.

What happens at CQ has no relevance to this forum. If discussions about another forum contribute nothing but hostility between the members here then I will just have to declare it off topic. That's something even hot topics like religion and politics haven't managed to accomplish in all the years I've moderated it.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Not Myself on March 02, 2013, 01:59:50 AM
The new board software has an ignore capability, which I've always found makes a huge improvement to the quality of any board.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Luckmeister on March 02, 2013, 04:40:56 PM
Hi gang, I've been on BABB/BAUT/CQ since 2006 and although I'll continue participating there (for now) want to broaden my horizons. This forum has some great discussions and, from what I've seen, good mutual respect between members so I look forward to learning a lot and hopefully contributing with some value as well.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: AtomicDog on March 02, 2013, 05:09:22 PM
Love your avatar.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Luckmeister on March 02, 2013, 05:14:14 PM
Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Selfsim on March 02, 2013, 06:49:18 PM
Hi gang, I've been on BABB/BAUT/CQ since 2006 and although I'll continue participating there (for now) want to broaden my horizons. This forum has some great discussions and, from what I've seen, good mutual respect between members so I look forward to learning a lot and hopefully contributing with some value as well.
Great to see the Luckmeister signing up here, too!
 :)
Whilst CQ may be an entirely separate site, it would seem that what happens there, does actually result in the addition of critical thinkers here(?)
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Not Myself on March 02, 2013, 07:33:00 PM
Whilst CQ may be an entirely separate site, it would seem that what happens there, does actually result in the addition of critical thinkers here(?)

It probably resulted in my being here, but whether that confirms or contradicts your hypothesis, I will let each judge for him/herself.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Luckmeister on March 02, 2013, 07:36:58 PM
Great to see the Luckmeister signing up here, too!
 :)
Whilst CQ may be an entirely separate site, it would seem that what happens there, does actually result in the addition of critical thinkers here(?)

Hi Selfsim. Yes I hope I'm a critical thinker (if not always a deep one). And thanks for the welcome.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: peter eldergill on March 02, 2013, 11:49:52 PM
I found out about AH from the old BAUT forum for sure, although that was years ago. I don't go to the new CQ at all any more. I just find it not interesting to me anymore, especially since the "merger"

I found the same thing happened to me years ago on another forum, called the Mike Holmes Fan Forum. We had a nice, small community, then Mike Holmes' show hit it big time and got aired in the US. Inevitably, there were posters from all over the US who I didn't know (it's not that they were from the US, it's just that there were so many new ones) and I had no rapport with them, nor no interest to get to know them at all. It's a personality thing I suppose.

Anyhow, I don't bother with CQ anymore. I find that when hoaxters come here it's more interesting, and way more interesting than JREF, which merges every apollohoax into one thread, as if there is only one thing to talk about.

Anyhow, enough for one night. I guess I can complain once a year or so...unless it's about the Toronto Maple Leafs, although they are clearly better than .......
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Glom on March 03, 2013, 03:23:48 AM
Although I can't get on CQ at the moment, I can still keep tabs on things through Universe Today.

Curiosity had Windows Vista issues.

SpaceX successfully bangs spacecraft with wrench.

Landsat reveals how Iraqi troops brought a little bit of home to Kuwait.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: smartcooky on March 03, 2013, 03:33:06 AM
I found out about AH from the old BAUT forum for sure, although that was years ago. I don't go to the new CQ at all any more. I just find it not interesting to me anymore, especially since the "merger"

I found out about AH from finding Clavius.org, which in turn I found when I was having a debate on another forum about the movie 2001.

[off-topic]
Apollo was happening during my teenage years. In New Zealand, we didn't have any of the early Apollo missions live on TV, so I used to tune my Stewart Warner shortwave radio into the Voice of America for "The Breakfast Show", where there were frequent updates and periods of broadcasting the communications between MC and the Apollo spacecraft.

But the VoA was also responsible for something else... sparking my interest in Jazz music from listening to Willis Conover's "Jazz Hour". The theme from that programme, an instrumental version of Duke Ellington's "Take the A Train" is something that, in my mind, will always be connected with Apollo. Whenever I hear it on the radio, William Anders' Apollo 8 photo of Earthrise over the lunar horizon is the first thing that pops into my head.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Luckmeister on March 04, 2013, 02:25:50 PM
Whenever I hear it on the radio, William Anders' Apollo 8 photo of Earthrise over the lunar horizon is the first thing that pops into my head.

When I see that photo, I daydream about how I will win the Lunar X-Prize with my RX7 on the Moon.  ;)

(http://home.comcast.net/~mcluster/moonRX7b.jpg)
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: RAF on March 05, 2013, 05:10:44 PM
Whilst CQ may be an entirely separate site, it would seem that what happens there, does actually result in the addition of critical thinkers here(?)

A few perhaps. Personally, I'm certainly not "recruiting" posters from there, although if someone asks, I'm more than happy to tell them about this board.

Rather ironic, but I had seriously considered removing my "blue Moon" avatar from CQ because it is my personal property, ie. I took the image, myself. Since the "upgrade" deleted all avatars, I don't have to bother doing that.

I'm certainly not going to re-create my avatar on CQ if I have no intention of ever posting there....the same applies to my signature.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Dalhousie on March 07, 2013, 03:59:58 AM
I got seriously disapointed by the old BAUT forum over strange and inconsistent moderation, especially from one person.  So I said my goodbyes a couple years ago, despite getting into the kilopi ranks.  Just started here, although I occasionally lurk there still. On principle won't post (only broke that rule once since leaving for an exceptional case), I occasionally have PMed people.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Not Myself on March 20, 2013, 02:12:39 PM
I got seriously disapointed by the old BAUT forum over strange and inconsistent moderation, especially from one person.

The moderation gets to me sometimes, but nothing like the way the faux-intellectualism of the membership does.

Just buggered off myself.  I've done it before, and come back.  We'll see if this one sticks.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Glom on March 20, 2013, 03:29:38 PM
That place is dead.  I discovered I can use a think called a web bruiser to access the forum.  Not been there for weeks and find only a handful of threads with recent posts.

Though at least Jay turned up to give a most excellent description of a rocket engine startup.  And he used the word "annular" tee hee.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Daniel Dravot on April 25, 2013, 05:12:46 PM
A necessary condition for terminating membership is to initiate it first, and I've found that so incredibly frustrating that I just gave up.  Never received the activation code, even though I tried to register three times, from three different email addresses.  No responses to trouble reports.  I don't know how more than one hundred thousand people managed it.

It may be just as well, I just went there, and it looks like one of the administrators is about to blow.  I don't want to be around for that.
Title: Re: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Glom on April 25, 2013, 05:29:37 PM
A necessary condition for terminating membership is to initiate it first, and I've found that so incredibly frustrating that I just gave up.  Never received the activation code, even though I tried to register three times, from three different email addresses.  No responses to trouble reports.  I don't know how more than one hundred thousand people managed it.

It may be just as well, I just went there, and it looks like one of the administrators is about to blow.  I don't want to be around for that.

You missed its prime. It doesn't seem like there's as much life there any more. Just a lot of moderation and moaning about moderation.
Title: Re: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Daniel Dravot on April 25, 2013, 06:30:25 PM
Just a lot of moderation and moaning about moderation.

I've noticed that the discussion is often more about procedures than about substance.

There certainly are some interesting characters over there.  I guess "interesting" is an accurate word to use here.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Glom on April 26, 2013, 03:28:35 PM
A better reason to call time on your membership than wanting to make a public flounce is to extricate yourself from 10 years worth of posts made by your younger self that are actually rather embarrassing to read now.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: ChrLz on May 27, 2013, 07:27:25 AM
Wandering a little off-topic and likely only to be of minor interest to other former BAUTers..

In breaking news .. er trivia..  Did you know that until yesterday you could type BAUT into Google and the Cosmoquest-BAUT forum link appeared at number 2, on the very first page.

Today, that search result is gone.  On page 2 perhaps? Nope.  3,4.. Nope.  And no-one ever looks past that, as we know..

If you are wondering why I noticed, I do pop over there for a quick look every now and then and it was an easy way to get there from a pc other than my own - just type in BAUT and click the second link.

So, I wonder what changed or if it's just natural attrition.. another nail in the coffin of that name?  Anyway, visiting there was becoming less and less attractive anyway, and watching the trainwreck of the LiS forum debate - I think it's probably time for me to stop visiting..  Am I bitter?  Nah, just disappointed - I thought BAUT was worth something and now it seems to be pretty much gone altogether, in name and spirit.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Luckmeister on May 27, 2013, 03:21:57 PM
I've been a member there since 2006. I don't think LiS has ever been a good example of BAUT's value. It attracts people who's primary knowledge of science is through sci-fi stories. My biggest concern with the forum today is that the mods don't care if science is being bastardized or misrepresented as long as the language and demeanor is what they consider appropriate for a 5th grader. If the staff and owners don't show a desire to actively support critical thinking, the board quality will erode, which I'm afraid is happening.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: qt on May 27, 2013, 06:49:03 PM
I don't know how it used to be, but right now, there's certainly a lot of talk about critical thinking.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Glom on May 29, 2013, 01:53:24 PM
as long as the language and demeanor is what they consider appropriate for a 5th grader

Speaking of which, is life in the 5th grade really that prudish?  I can understand not wanting a laissez-faire attitude to language where all sorts of creative vocabulary are used, but this seems like the other end of the spectrum.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Luckmeister on May 29, 2013, 03:10:19 PM
It seems to be the school nanny filters they're worried about which go purely by words used, not intent or alternate meanings. A while back, mods and posters were even haggling about using abbreviations like BS.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Glom on May 30, 2013, 02:40:17 PM
It seems to be the school nanny filters they're worried about which go purely by words used, not intent or alternate meanings.

Which are obviously extremely prudish.

But I should really stop making mecha-posts.  First my Star Trek recap.  Now my flying guide.  I was supposed to be reviewing well tests this evening.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: ChrLz on May 31, 2013, 06:40:41 AM
until yesterday you could type BAUT into Google and the Cosmoquest-BAUT forum link appeared at number 2, on the very first page.  Today, that search result is gone...
An update - Cosmoquest has reappeared as the primary Google search result for "BAUT" after a brief disappearance..  Was it a Google glitch?  Did Cosmoquest remove references to BAUT on their forum page to test if anyone would notice?

Dunno.  But I think it was a conspiracy of some kind! :o
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: qt on May 31, 2013, 07:24:09 AM
Dunno.  But I think it was a conspiracy of some kind! :o

No doubt.  And they'll probably get away with it too.
Title: Re: Terminating membership at BAUT/CQ
Post by: Donnie B. on June 02, 2013, 08:37:45 AM
Dunno.  But I think it was a conspiracy of some kind! :o

No doubt.  And they'll probably get away with it too.

If it wasn't for those meddling kids!