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Off Topic => General Discussion => Topic started by: LionKing on December 22, 2018, 06:21:03 PM

Title: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on December 22, 2018, 06:21:03 PM
I have googled many signs of freemasonry in NASA, and many of its astronauts and men are freemasons. The question is why are highly intelligent people after a sort of cult organization?
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Allan F on December 22, 2018, 09:03:12 PM
You assume freemasonry is a cult?

Isn't it more like a gentleman's club, where people of significance can discuss subjects that matter to them? Why is it a problem? People discuss private and business matters confidentially all the time.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: onebigmonkey on December 23, 2018, 02:50:25 AM
It's seen in many circles as a sign of social rank - part of the natural order of things as you climb the ladder. I often see it floated as something of significance in terms of Apollo (not to mention the wildly exaggerated number of freemasons among the astronauts), but it's not like they ever made a secret of it.

This first day cover from my collection proudly shows off one of their members, and I have seen others:

(https://i.imgur.com/QdaxvwX.jpg)
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: molesworth on December 23, 2018, 04:26:42 AM
If we ever find out that any astronaut was a member of the Stonecutters, then I'll start to worry...  ;D
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on December 23, 2018, 06:29:46 AM
It's seen in many circles as a sign of social rank - part of the natural order of things as you climb the ladder. I often see it floated as something of significance in terms of Apollo (not to mention the wildly exaggerated number of freemasons among the astronauts), but it's not like they ever made a secret of it.

This first day cover from my collection proudly shows off one of their members, and I have seen others:

(https://i.imgur.com/QdaxvwX.jpg)

They keep a secret of their beliefs. They swear an oath to that. Why high ranking people go to it if it is not giv8ng them power in some way?
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Jason Thompson on December 23, 2018, 07:00:03 AM
They keep a secret of their beliefs. They swear an oath to that. Why high ranking people go to it if it is not giv8ng them power in some way?

Why not? Also, you seem to have it backwards. High ranking people already have power. Why join another society to get what they already have?

All you are doing is demonstrating the sadly not unusual paranoia that any group that doesn't share everything must be hiding something and it must be something big if high ranking individuals are involved. You have no proof. You also have no basis to consider it a cult besides this supposed secrecy and the widespread understanding that masons help other masons, which is hardly unique to that group or society of humans.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Peter B on December 23, 2018, 09:06:15 AM
They keep a secret of their beliefs. They swear an oath to that. Why high ranking people go to it if it is not giv8ng them power in some way?

It's another group that people can join, in order to meet other people who might be able to help them climb the corporate/social ladder.

In one organisation I worked for it was supposedly fairly common knowledge that the workforce contained large groups of Catholics and Masons. The theory was that Masons would do everything they could to help fellow Masons get promoted, and the Catholics would do everything they could to help fellow Catholics get promoted. Naturally, if people were promoted ahead of others with supposedly better skills, then it's reasonable to believe that promoted Masons were promoted at the expense of non-Masons, including Catholics. And vice versa.

Whether the astronauts were able to pull similar stunts I don't know.

Just another thing, LionKing: look at the first day cover again and see the dates he reached his "Degrees": 1955 and 1956 - not only before he was an astronaut but before the first satellite was launched. In other words, Aldrin wasn't a "high-ranking" person at the time. People didn't join the Masons because they already were high-ranking; they joined it when they were low-ranking in the hope it would help them become high-ranking.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: grmcdorman on December 23, 2018, 10:14:45 AM
It's social networking, pre-Internet style. Perhaps a bit more filtered, to be sure, but still just social networking. That probably existed since the first organizations; the people who put up Stonehenge probably had some form of social networking.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on December 23, 2018, 10:18:30 AM
They keep a secret of their beliefs. They swear an oath to that. Why high ranking people go to it if it is not giv8ng them power in some way?

It's another group that people can join, in order to meet other people who might be able to help them climb the corporate/social ladder.

In one organisation I worked for it was supposedly fairly common knowledge that the workforce contained large groups of Catholics and Masons. The theory was that Masons would do everything they could to help fellow Masons get promoted, and the Catholics would do everything they could to help fellow Catholics get promoted. Naturally, if people were promoted ahead of others with supposedly better skills, then it's reasonable to believe that promoted Masons were promoted at the expense of non-Masons, including Catholics. And vice versa.

Whether the astronauts were able to pull similar stunts I don't know.

Just another thing, LionKing: look at the first day cover again and see the dates he reached his "Degrees": 1955 and 1956 - not only before he was an astronaut but before the first satellite was launched. In other words, Aldrin wasn't a "high-ranking" person at the time. People didn't join the Masons because they already were high-ranking; they joined it when they were low-ranking in the hope it would help them become high-ranking.

This is what i actually meant. They are getting power from there. Why not join the catholics? Bcz politicians or to be politicians and to be high ranking people know how much controlling and powerful such an organization is. This confirms the "rumors" about their control of affairs or serves to highten its likelihood.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: gillianren on December 23, 2018, 12:29:17 PM
My grandfather was a Mason.  He was also a member of the Lions Club and the Kiwanis.  Want to tell me some conspiracies about them?
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: onebigmonkey on December 23, 2018, 12:58:56 PM
A pub I used to frequent as a young man hosted in its upstairs room the "Royal Antediluvian Order of the Buffalo". I believe you had to be nominated to join. No doubt there were silly deeds to be done as initiation ceremonies. Really it was just a drinking club for old boys.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Allan F on December 23, 2018, 09:30:22 PM
That one about only drinking with your left hand, because if somebody in the room shouted "Buffalo" while you were raising your glass with your right, you'd have to buy everybody in the room a drink?
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Bryanpoprobson on December 24, 2018, 02:13:08 AM
A pub I used to frequent as a young man hosted in its upstairs room the "Royal Antediluvian Order of the Buffalo". I believe you had to be nominated to join. No doubt there were silly deeds to be done as initiation ceremonies. Really it was just a drinking club for old boys.

I’m a buff, but not active anymore, it was a drinking club and a means of raising charitable funds.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on December 24, 2018, 05:42:03 AM
But freemasonry's people are not lay people. They are presidents and academics, financial persons and police, all helped to reach such positions. It will be naive to think all this is done without a plan to control.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Jason Thompson on December 24, 2018, 07:39:23 AM
But freemasonry's people are not lay people. They are presidents and academics, financial persons and police, all helped to reach such positions. It will be naive to think all this is done without a plan to control.

There are plenty of lay people who are Masons. I know a few myself. There are plenty of academics, presidents, police and financiers who are not masons. The presence of a few prominent individuals in the group is no more suspect than any other group. It is not naive to think there is no plan of control, it is paranoid to assume there is. Helping others in your club get into high positions is not an indication of anything other than a desire to help individuals succeed. Why assume a wider purpose than individual gain?
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Allan F on December 24, 2018, 08:21:39 AM
But freemasonry's people are not lay people. They are presidents and academics, financial persons and police, all helped to reach such positions. It will be naive to think all this is done without a plan to control.

I know one who was a private soldier for 20 years, then taxi driver for 10, and now on disability following heart problems, who is a member.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: gillianren on December 24, 2018, 11:46:56 AM
My grandfather was a Methodist minister.  And a Mason, as I mentioned earlier.  There are over five million Masons in the world.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on December 24, 2018, 06:20:26 PM
But freemasonry's people are not lay people. They are presidents and academics, financial persons and police, all helped to reach such positions. It will be naive to think all this is done without a plan to control.

There are plenty of lay people who are Masons. I know a few myself. There are plenty of academics, presidents, police and financiers who are not masons. The presence of a few prominent individuals in the group is no more suspect than any other group. It is not naive to think there is no plan of control, it is paranoid to assume there is. Helping others in your club get into high positions is not an indication of anything other than a desire to help individuals succeed. Why assume a wider purpose than individual gain?

It is always better to have more people, even if lay and continue to be bcz u don't know how you  an use them and when you are gonna need them. Having more supporters is better than having less. This doesn't mean they know the hidden agenda if there is one.
If I am a religious affiliate, heading some religious group, yes I would help the other affiliates to reach so they propagate that religion and spread it wherever they are. Also, me putting them there will make them owe me a favor when I need them. What is the belief or "favors"of any type that freemasonry would be asking people to do? We might only speculate in light of books written by ex masons such as William Morgan. IMHO being powerful to the  extent of getting people to presidency and financial control at highest levels is not something planned in vain. And even for those who might not be masons, Monica kept.the dress for three years to accuse Clinton, right? Who is planning carefully all this to keep presidents in their grip? It is a group that knows how to control sensitive issues in countries.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Zakalwe on December 24, 2018, 07:15:44 PM
Just because you want something to be true it doesn't follow that it is true. Lionking you come across as tremendously gullible person. Time and again you post crank theory after crank theory. Maybe you need to consider how you view the world is the problem.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: onebigmonkey on December 27, 2018, 03:28:06 AM
We might only speculate

That's it right there.

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Monica kept.the dress for three years to accuse Clinton, right? Who is planning carefully all this to keep presidents in their grip?

And how did that work out eventually? Was he removed from office by force? He was made to look foolish, but he didn't lose his job. For an all powerful conspiracy to control those in power they don't seem to be doing that good a job.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Jason Thompson on December 27, 2018, 04:54:09 AM
It is always better to have more people, even if lay and continue to be bcz u don't know how you  an use them and when you are gonna need them.

Clearly you have decided that the organisation is suspect. Earlier you said freemasons were not laypeople, then when told that there are plenty of laypeople who are masons you brush that under the carpet as insignificant rather than admit you may have been mistaken in your original assertion. So which is it? Is it an organisation of high ranking people as you said earler, or one of all walks of life as an insurance so when these people might randomly become important you can use them?

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Having more supporters is better than having less.

True of every organisation.

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This doesn't mean they know the hidden agenda if there is one.

This doesn't mean there is one in the first place.
 
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If I am a religious affiliate, heading some religious group, yes I would help the other affiliates to reach so they propagate that religion and spread it wherever they are. Also, me putting them there will make them owe me a favor when I need them. What is the belief or "favors"of any type that freemasonry would be asking people to do? We might only speculate in light of books written by ex masons such as William Morgan.

Why speculate about the nature of favours asked? And why freemasonry as opposed to any other organisation?

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IMHO being powerful to the  extent of getting people to presidency and financial control at highest levels is not something planned in vain.

Freemasons are not unique in having members that get to high office. Why is this one group more significant than any other affiliation?

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Monica kept.the dress for three years to accuse Clinton, right? Who is planning carefully all this to keep presidents in their grip?

Why does that have to be planned by a group ratrher than by one intern who realises she has, at the very least, a good story she can cash in on in future if she finds herself in need of some extra money or wants to get her name in the papers? It didn't bring down an adminsitration.

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It is a group that knows how to control sensitive issues in countries.

You're going to need more evidence than one presidential sex scandal to support that assertion.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on December 27, 2018, 06:33:48 AM
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Clearly you have decided that the organisation is suspect. Earlier you said freemasons were not laypeople, then when told that there are plenty of laypeople who are masons you brush that under the carpet as insignificant rather than admit you may have been mistaken in your original assertion. So which is it? Is it an organisation of high ranking people as you said earler, or one of all walks of life as an insurance so when these people might randomly become important you can use them?


There are too many freemasons in many fields. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Freemasons
too many not laypeople in sensitive positions than you would hear of other organizations. This makes the lay people in it, who are not of high degrees in the fraternity specifically, a minor issue, especially that they are not the planners and they don't know the highest secrets as those with higher degrees.

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True of every organisation.

But not true for every organization to have that much non laypeople in sensitive positions

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This doesn't mean there is one in the first place.

The masons participated in the Russian, American and French revolution. They are shaping our world. You can go on believing that Johnny Bravo having a tower burning in the background and saying "coming soon' months before 9 11 attacks, and all the agenda of freemasonry is clean, and Monica Lweisnky's scandal is not planned by them, and the Simpson's issues are all coincidence..to me , there is power control and shaping of the world we live in in many aspects.

 
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Jason Thompson on December 27, 2018, 06:50:05 AM
There are too many freemasons in many fields. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Freemasons
too many not laypeople in sensitive positions than you would hear of other organizations.

Where is your comparative data to support that statement? Also, yes, that list is bound to have a lot of important people on it, because, as it says, it is a list of notable Freemasons. A full list would be worthless since no-one cares if Joe Bloggs of boring street, nowehereville is a mason until and unless he becomes a noted public figure.

Now, where is your list of notable members of other organisations to comapre with?

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This makes the lay people in it, who are not of high degrees in the fraternity specifically, a minor issue,

And yet you specifically pointed out the lack of laypeople as an issue earlier on. Choose your words with more care, and at least admit you made such an error before brushing it under the carpet as insignificant.

Here's an interesting question for you to consider: how many of these notable masons in high public office are in similarly high-ranking positions within their lodges? Or are the high ranked lodge members actually laypeople who rose up the ranks of the organisation without ever becoming notable figures? Or are we supposed to believe the cliche that obvously the high-ranking masons are shadowy background figures and all the high-ranking public figures are somehow beholden to them?

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especially that they are not the planners and they don't know the highest secrets as those with higher degrees.

Again, true of every organisation and club. Lower 'ranks' don't have access to the intricacies of running the group. I don't have access to my company's accounts and I'm not part of the high-level strategy meetings. Want to read some significance into this?

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But not true for every organization to have that much non laypeople in sensitive positions

Circular reasoning. By definition the high ranking public figures are not 'laypeople'. And again, prove it. You should know by now that on this forum simply asserting something without evidence is not accepted blindly.

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The masons participated in the Russian, American and French revolution. They are shaping our world.

There is a world of difference between 'participated in' and 'shaping'. Those events involved entire nations. Any organisation that's been around for as long as Freemasonry will have 'participated in' major historical events of that scale in some way.

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You can go on believing that Johnny Bravo having a tower burning in the background and saying "coming soon' months before 9 11 attacks, and all the agenda of freemasonry is clean, and Monica Lweisnky's scandal is not planned by them, and the Simpson's issues are all coincidence.

Yes, I will thank you. Burning tower blocks are not unique to 9/11. You might as well argue that The Towering Inferno or Die Hard are suspect because they showed burning tower blocks years before 9/11. Maybe the masons burned Grenfell Tower too?

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.to me , there is power control and shaping of the world we live in in many aspects.

But as usual all you have done is cherry picked your sources that say 'this thing I agree with is happening' and assumed that is enough. Where is your critical and comparative analysis?

This is just another manifestation of your old 'scientists say' arguments. You're not interested in actually debating because every contrary position is brushed away under the carpet. OK, fine, you believe Freemasonry is controlling the world. At least admit it is just a belief with no hard evidence backing it up.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on December 27, 2018, 08:10:01 AM
the ones in the revolutions are leading people who take decisions.

also it is not normal the oath to be killed if you spill the beans, something that was practiced on one of the ex-masons who decided to leave them and write a book about them.



if you kill everyone who spills the beans, you can kill them for not carrying out your orders too, which makes that person under your grip, you being so powerful and controlling.

I don't have  list of other organizations and how many people who are high ranking follow them, I just did not hear of organizations who plan murders like this and have oaths for members to be killed if they spill the beans, unless those are mafias.



Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: gillianren on December 27, 2018, 12:04:42 PM
Yes, I will thank you. Burning tower blocks are not unique to 9/11. You might as well argue that The Towering Inferno or Die Hard are suspect because they showed burning tower blocks years before 9/11. Maybe the masons burned Grenfell Tower too?

I watched "The Architects Sketch" last night, and it was clearly Monty Python what done it.

A few brief minutes of Googling found this.  http://www.charlotterotary.org/400famousrotarians.html

And as for "we'll kill you if you spill our secrets," it's actually fairly common.  Especially in trade guilds of the Middle Ages, from which Freemasonry is theoretically derived.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on December 27, 2018, 03:56:23 PM
http://www.wildheretic.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=470


This is why they are all there.

and it is never ok to practice killing for telling secrets, even if it was practiced by organizations in middle ages.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Allan F on December 27, 2018, 07:16:38 PM
Do you have any RELIABLE, VERIFIABLE and not-conspiracist-twaddle sources?
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: smartcooky on December 27, 2018, 08:31:31 PM
Quote
Clearly you have decided that the organisation is suspect. Earlier you said freemasons were not laypeople, then when told that there are plenty of laypeople who are masons you brush that under the carpet as insignificant rather than admit you may have been mistaken in your original assertion. So which is it? Is it an organisation of high ranking people as you said earler, or one of all walks of life as an insurance so when these people might randomly become important you can use them?


There are too many freemasons in many fields. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Freemasons
too many not laypeople in sensitive positions than you would hear of other organizations. This makes the lay people in it, who are not of high degrees in the fraternity specifically, a minor issue, especially that they are not the planners and they don't know the highest secrets as those with higher degrees.

Quote
True of every organisation.

But not true for every organization to have that much non laypeople in sensitive positions

Quote
This doesn't mean there is one in the first place.

The masons participated in the Russian, American and French revolution. They are shaping our world. You can go on believing that Johnny Bravo having a tower burning in the background and saying "coming soon' months before 9 11 attacks, and all the agenda of freemasonry is clean, and Monica Lweisnky's scandal is not planned by them, and the Simpson's issues are all coincidence..to me , there is power control and shaping of the world we live in in many aspects.

What a load of unmitigated claptrap!!

Freemasonry is just a religion. The idea that Freemasons are some kind of evil-doing secret society that control everything is complete rubbish and CT lunacy.

Lists of Freemasons are no more significant than lists of Catholics, or lists of Protestants, or lists of members of your local Working Men's Club.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: gillianren on December 28, 2018, 02:18:07 AM
http://www.wildheretic.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=470


This is why they are all there.

and it is never ok to practice killing for telling secrets, even if it was practiced by organizations in middle ages.

But the Masons don't actually kill you for telling their secrets, as is evidenced by how much about Masonry is known.  They claim they'll kill you and make you swear oaths that you agree to it, but there's no evidence that they follow through.  Also, it is literally not allowed for Pope Francis to be a Mason.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: gillianren on December 28, 2018, 02:29:08 AM
Famous members of the Lions Club include Jimmy Carter, Richard E. Byrd, Helen Keller, and Amelia Earhart--the latter of whom could not have been Masons.

Here is a list of famous members of the Toastmasters, many of who could not be Masons.  https://sites.google.com/a/tmcontrarians.com/the-contrarians/Home/about-the-toastmasters-program/famous-toastmasters

Famous members of the Civitans.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civitan_International#Notable_Civitans

Famous Soroptomists.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soroptimist_International#Notable_members

Basically, you find a service organization, you're going to find famous people who are/have been members.  Because it's the sort of thing a certain type of person does in order to get involved.  And, yes, being a member of these clubs could give you a boost in local politics, because important people in your community might be members, but that is also true of things like fraternities (some of which require members to swear secrets unto death, incidentally) and military academies.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: gillianren on December 28, 2018, 02:37:09 AM
You should also be aware that a lot of anti-Masonic propaganda was spread nearly two hundred years ago by weird American political factions and made up whole-cloth at the time.  It has since been embellished and spread by credulous people who don't take any time to look into the actual history of what they're repeating.  For example, the "Captain Morgan" of your video was never actually shown to have served in the War of 1812 as he claimed or indeed to have had the degree in Masonry that he claimed.  In fact, it was never conclusively established that William Morgan was murdered, though he's assuredly dead by now.  He may simply have been paid enough to disappear.  There was certainly unpleasantness in the whole thing, and he may well have been murdered by Masons, but there's no evidence that it's true and unlikely to be any at this late date.  It turns out most of the scare stories about Masonry can be tracked down like this and turned out to be exaggerations full of uncertainty.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on December 28, 2018, 05:36:46 AM
Morgan was surely kidnapped by Masons. They put him in jail before for not being able to pay. But he used ti attend their meetings http://projects.leadr.msu.edu/uniontodisunion/exhibits/show/freemasons-and-the-murder-of-w/the-disappearance-of-william-m

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/tabbert8.html Toastmasters is recommended by freemasons

Sure many important people can be part of specialized organizations that help them develop their skills. But we don't find all this influence all over the world and that big number of very high ranking people in it.
Yes they are benefiting from power. The issue is that if you control all the sensitive institutions you can rule to a great extent and influence decisions.


Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: smartcooky on December 28, 2018, 06:22:48 AM
Morgan was surely kidnapped by Masons. They put him in jail before for not being able to pay. But he used ti attend their meetings http://projects.leadr.msu.edu/uniontodisunion/exhibits/show/freemasons-and-the-murder-of-w/the-disappearance-of-william-m

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/tabbert8.html Toastmasters is recommended by freemasons

Sure many important people can be part of specialized organizations that help them develop their skills. But we don't find all this influence all over the world and that big number of very high ranking people in it.
Yes they are benefiting from power. The issue is that if you control all the sensitive institutions you can rule to a great extent and influence decisions.





Conspiracy Theory bollocks.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on December 28, 2018, 06:36:43 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11899901/jack-the-ripper-mystery-solved.html

Just because he is a "brother", Jack the Ripper was protected.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Zakalwe on December 28, 2018, 06:57:51 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/WzZVzNQb/index.png)
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on December 28, 2018, 09:14:45 AM
It is not of significance though. Here the political parties claim good principles but protect criminals if he belongs to them. But likewise, if any criminal of them is being covered up for it will be a problem.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Echnaton on December 28, 2018, 01:42:43 PM
My father and grandfather were Masons.  It is a fraternal society that raises funds for children's healthcare.    Men join it for the reason they join other fraternal organizations, to help others and make friends through mutual service. They have halls for meetings like most other similar organizations.  They follow symbolic rituals that seem silly to us nowadays. It requires learning of secrets to advance in organizational status so you get to wear a special funny hat.   

That is really about it.  Like other many other similar old fashioned groups and churches, their memberships has been dwindling to the point they are just and old boys club.

Both my grandfather and father were big in the the masonic group called the Shriners and took turns running major fundraising projects.  I never joined because all the needless rituals seemed silly to me.

It is not of significance though. Here the political parties claim good principles but protect criminals if he belongs to them. But likewise, if any criminal of them is being covered up for it will be a problem.

That is a common human problem of governance and cannot be attributed to a whole group like the Masons except through guilt by association.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: gillianren on December 28, 2018, 02:16:01 PM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11899901/jack-the-ripper-mystery-solved.html

Just because he is a "brother", Jack the Ripper was protected.

That is certainly one theory.  It doesn't have any more evidence than any of the other claims to have "solved" the murders, but it's one theory.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Jason Thompson on December 29, 2018, 09:11:57 AM
Morgan was surely kidnapped by Masons.

Even if this is so, there is a huge leap from some members of one lodge doing something dodgy to the entire organisation worldwide being suspect. But then you've never had trouble making those huge leaps from small steps, have you?

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Sure many important people can be part of specialized organizations that help them develop their skills. But we don't find all this influence all over the world and that big number of very high ranking people in it.

Translation: I didn't know there were other organisations and membership groups with high-ranking people in, and now that I've been given such lists they are not important anyway.
 
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The issue is that if you control all the sensitive institutions you can rule to a great extent and influence decisions.

Again, there is a world of difference between members of a club being in power and that club itself controlling institutions. Freemasons exist the world over. Even in the US there are masons in all the political parties, and they can't even agree with each other. That does not equate to a single, over-arching control of the world's institutions.

Nothing about the world's governments at the moment speaks of any one group controlling it all. Politics is getting more and more fractured these days. All the conspiracy theories are nicely watertight, though, because a) they rely on secretive institutions that by definition can never openly state their intentions, and b) they are either demonstrating the control by forging alliances or covering it up by staging conflicts. There's nothing rational in proposing such a control system, and no evidence to support it.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Jason Thompson on December 29, 2018, 09:13:46 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11899901/jack-the-ripper-mystery-solved.html

Just because he is a "brother", Jack the Ripper was protected.

No, one person writes a book about his theory about masonic connections. There are plenty of other theories out there about the identity of Jack the Ripper, each of which has its pros and cons. And again this is way off proving some over-arching control.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: gillianren on December 29, 2018, 10:47:45 AM
Frankly, the fact that women can't join the Masons is a big hole in the idea that they control the world.  It's not exactly as though the idea that women can have power is new (looks at Catherine the Great, Elizabeth I, Eleanor of Aquitaine . . .), but it's certainly a considerably more likely situation now than it was two hundred years ago when most of the anti-Mason propaganda was invented.  Why risk the absolute certainty that there would be countries whose leaders weren't Masons, couldn't be Masons?
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Jason Thompson on December 29, 2018, 01:05:41 PM
Why risk the absolute certainty that there would be countries whose leaders weren't Masons, couldn't be Masons?

Ah, there you go applying logic to a conspiracy theory again. If the actual leader can't be a mason then all the people doing the actual work under that leader can be, feeding her misinformation, only doing the things they want to do, etc. etc.

Global conspiracies don't work logically. Either they are doing exacty what it looks like up front or they're doing something else behind the scenes and doing other stuff to distract from what they're actually doing behind the scenes.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on December 30, 2018, 07:36:26 AM
The mentioned clubs have freemasonic connections. I did not see a club with such a wide influence in finances , trade,politics, police and all other than freemasonry. There is no conclusive proof, but there are tell_tale details of heir control. Being in different parties and having a brotherhood oath can confirm doubts not decrease them. With bad governance practiced by many political parties the effect only becomes worse.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Echnaton on December 30, 2018, 09:05:29 PM
I did not see a club with such a wide influence in finances , trade,politics, police and all other than freemasonry.

Ever heard of the Catholic Church?  The Catholic Church and the Catholic monarchs that controlled it have been far more important throughout history in these areas than the bricklayers.

BTW Catholics are not allowed ,by the church, to be Masons. 
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: smartcooky on December 30, 2018, 09:46:27 PM
I did not see a club with such a wide influence in finances , trade,politics, police and all other than freemasonry.

Ever heard of the Catholic Church?  The Catholic Church and the Catholic monarchs that controlled it have been far more important throughout history in these areas than the bricklayers.

BTW Catholics are not allowed ,by the church, to be Masons.

I'll bet he's not heard of the Church of England either!
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Jason Thompson on December 31, 2018, 04:48:41 AM
The mentioned clubs have freemasonic connections. I did not see a club with such a wide influence in finances , trade,politics, police and all other than freemasonry.

And most major religions.

Please try to understand the difference between important people in various fields being members of a club and that club actually having control over those fields.

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There is no conclusive proof, but there are tell_tale details of heir control.

And what are those details? Come on, Lionking, you know how this forum works, you've been on it long enough.

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Being in different parties and having a brotherhood oath can confirm doubts not decrease them.

Of course. See my earlier comment and thanks for giving the exact predicted response. Co-operation is proof of influence, conflict is proof of staged events to hide the influence....
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Echnaton on December 31, 2018, 12:12:23 PM

I'll bet he's not heard of the Church of England either!

Aren't they the group lead by shapeshifting reptilians?

Maybe not but one can be Anglican and a Mason at the same time, so LionKing could plausibly conflate the two into her woo fest. 

In fact they are tied together as so far as Masonry is of British origin.  With the oldest lodge being in Edinburgh, according to Wikipedia. 
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Echnaton on December 31, 2018, 12:14:48 PM
Co-operation is proof of influence, conflict is proof of staged events to hide the influence....

Classic woo!
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on January 03, 2019, 07:40:13 AM
https://exploringrealhistory.blogspot.com/2017/07/part-3-operation-gladiothe-unholy.html?m=1

Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: gillianren on January 03, 2019, 11:08:26 AM
Look, LionKing, I have studied US history at length.  I'm not going to take the word of some random blogger over primary sources about the anti-Masonic movement in the US and its tendency to make stuff up that is still reported as truth, nearly two centuries later.  Most of the stuff you're presenting is based on hoaxes that have been known as hoaxes for that long.  Much of the rest of it is drawing inferences that could be used just as easily to prove that the Girl Scouts are a sinister organization.  Anti-Masonic prejudice in the US dates to the era when Americans were first establishing a national identity.  Masonry, Catholicism, and immigration were all seen, for varying reasons, as damaging to that identity.  So lies were made up about all three.  It doesn't impress anyone with your research skills when you're still falling for them.  You don't even have the excuse of being American.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on January 03, 2019, 12:00:44 PM
these are chapters of a book, not a mere blogger. the author of the book is an American author https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_L._Williams_(author)

Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Jason Thompson on January 03, 2019, 02:32:07 PM
these are chapters of a book, not a mere blogger. the author of the book is an American author https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_L._Williams_(author)

Yes, that was pretty much the point gillianren was making, wasn't it? Just because it is a book written by an American doesn't make it true. Freemasonry originated in England, not the US. It wasn't liked in the US so people promoted hoaxes and other anti-masonic literature.

Furthermore, as the article you linked to makes abundantly clear, Williams is a) Catholic and therefore cannot be a mason, and indeed is part of an explicitly anti-masonic organisation, and b) a rampant conspiracy theorist. He does not in any way qualify as an impartial and recognised authority on masonic activity. Quite the reverse, in fact.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on January 03, 2019, 02:46:45 PM
Ah ok i did not understand her comment about being not American..

being a catholic he has interests against them, doesn't mean he is wrong. He also wrote against the Vatican although he is Catholic. the italian freemasonry is well-known for scandals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due#Banco_Ambrosiano_scandal


Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Jason Thompson on January 03, 2019, 02:55:13 PM
Ah ok i did not understand her comment about being not American..

Fair enough, misunderstandings happen.

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being a catholic he has interests against them, doesn't mean he is wrong.

Doesn't exactly make him a reliable author either. It certainly doesn't make him a good source to bolster your arguments with.

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He also wrote against the Vatican although he is Catholic.

He seems to have quite a few targets. However, the question is not what he writes against but what actual evidence there is to support his claims.

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the italian freemasonry is well-known for scandals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due#Banco_Ambrosiano_scandal

Lionking, do you actually read the articles you cite? This is not 'Italian freemasonry', it is an organisation that came out of a single masonic lodge that had its charter withdrawn in 1976, a good few years before the Banco Ambrosiano affair in 1982.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on January 03, 2019, 03:16:57 PM
"In 1970, during the failed Golpe Borghese, he was delegated the role of arresting the Italian President, Giuseppe Saragat.[5] As Master of the Propaganda Due (P2) lodge, Gelli had ties with very high level personalities in Italy and abroad, in particular in Argentina, where he was a fugitive for many years."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licio_Gelli


the bank collapsed later, but he was involved in illegal acts before that, and he was the head of the masonic lodge back then.
"Gelli publicly declared on repeated occasions that he was a close friend of Perón, although no confirmation ever came from South America. Gelli affirmed that he introduced Peron to Masonry and that this friendship was of real importance for Italy. He stated: "Peron was a Mason, I initiated him in Madrid in Puerta de Hierro, in June 1973.""

this was all before the charter was withdrawn

it demonstrates how when one is in masonry and has connections he can influence decisions of important people , through blackmailing sometimes. Having judges by their sides is as well dangerous. whatever control over money and policies they want they can have.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Jason Thompson on January 03, 2019, 03:31:03 PM
this was all before the charter was withdrawn

OK. Do you think it might be possible that these things were why the charter was withdrawn?

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it demonstrates how when one is in masonry and has connections he can influence decisions of important people

No, it illustrates how one person with the ear of important people can influence things, regardless of what organisation he happens to belong to.

You are, still, confusing individual masons having important connections and power with the entire organisation being in some global conspiracy to hold power. Please tell me you can actually see the difference between those two things.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on January 03, 2019, 03:42:01 PM
they can't but withdraw it when it is that much uncovered. it would be too embarrassing.

I see the difference. You can't expect to have this written in front of public eyes that they want to control power. However, what they act reveals they want and are controlling. When presidents and important people come to them to be presidents and important people, and with all what is happening in the world of wars to control fuel oil which means control of money also, and their politicians involved, even reaching scientific institutes as NASA, it is hard for me to imagine that their goals are clean. Let us end it here and each one has the freedom to maintain his position on this.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Jason Thompson on January 03, 2019, 05:00:00 PM
they can't but withdraw it when it is that much uncovered. it would be too embarrassing.

Standard and entirely expected response. You are disappointingly predictable at times. They withdraw the charter not because they don't wish to be associated with such activity but because they are hiding that they are associated with it?  As usual every action is evidence of something fishy. There's nothing objective in your analysis at all. You've decided the organisation is suspect and nothing anyone says will change your mind.

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I see the difference.

I wish I could beieve that.

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You can't expect to have this written in front of public eyes that they want to control power.

And yet according to all the crap you've been spouting it might as well be.

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it is hard for me to imagine that their goals are clean.

Of course, because you've decided they are not. But you still maintain the entire organisation is somehow controlling the entire world, a feat of centuries of worldwide co-operation that no-one has ever shown the slightest bit of aptitude for.

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Let us end it here and each one has the freedom to maintain his position on this.

And as usual you simply abandon the thread without the slightest concession that you just might be wrong about any of your points. Why do you make such a habit of this? You pull out a few sources that agree with your predetermined position and start a thread on here where it becomes clear very early on you have no intention of actually discussing it, only in promoting your thoughts on it. Honestly, what do you gain from being here at all?
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: nomuse on January 03, 2019, 11:34:02 PM
Yup.

I've noticed a lot of important people wear ties.

Therefore ties run the world.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: smartcooky on January 04, 2019, 02:51:45 AM
Next thing that LionKing will be trying to tell us is that members of the KGC were also Freemasons...
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on January 04, 2019, 08:26:53 AM
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Standard and entirely expected response. You are disappointingly predictable at times. They withdraw the charter not because they don't wish to be associated with such activity but because they are hiding that they are associated with it?  As usual every action is evidence of something fishy. There's nothing objective in your analysis at all. You've decided the organisation is suspect and nothing anyone says will change your mind.

I am saying that withdrawing the charter from them is not a definitive proof. There have been many instances for cover ups, one of them is the Titanic investigation where the captain was accused by Americans but deemed innocent by the masonic investigative committee because he is mason.  As much as things could be hidden, they did not act against them. If I were them, and the P2 is uncovered, I would not want anything to do with them.

I am not stating that I am wring because I am not convinced I am.

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You can't expect to have this written in front of public eyes that they want to control power.

And yet according to all the crap you've been spouting it might as well be.

It might be that they state it out according to what I post? I never said they made it clear they want to control. They would want to show they are good.

anyhow, no point in continuing the discussion
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on January 04, 2019, 08:27:30 AM
Next thing that LionKing will be trying to tell us is that members of the KGC were also Freemasons...

What does KGC stand for?
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Echnaton on January 04, 2019, 08:53:04 AM

being a catholic he has interests against them, doesn't mean he is wrong.

Why do you think he is right?
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Echnaton on January 04, 2019, 08:57:36 AM
Next thing that LionKing will be trying to tell us is that members of the KGC were also Freemasons...

What does KGC stand for?

Knights of the Golden Circle. An American expansionist pro slavery group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_the_Golden_Circle
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Echnaton on January 04, 2019, 08:59:05 AM
There have been many instances for cover ups

But why do you think this particular issue is a cover up. 
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: gillianren on January 04, 2019, 11:02:22 AM
The Titanic hearing was intended to clear the White Star Line from being liable for damages.  They didn't want to get sued, so they used their influence to be sure they wouldn't.  It's really that simple; you don't have to bring Masonry into it.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Jason Thompson on January 04, 2019, 11:10:47 AM
I am saying that withdrawing the charter from them is not a definitive proof.

I don't claim it is proof either. However, there are two reasons for withdrawing the charter, one of which is consistent with the actions of a larger authority who will not tolerate the actions of the P2 group because they are not aligned with the overall group attitude (which is a common enough event in everyday life: people and groups get expelled from organisations all the time for just this reason), while the other is somehow suspicious because they actually do align with the group's wider intentions but too obviously, so they were cast out to try and make the overall organisation look better. I don't claim that is not possible, but it is far less common.

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There have been many instances for cover ups, one of them is the Titanic investigation where the captain was accused by Americans but deemed innocent by the masonic investigative committee because he is mason.

Prove please that he was found innocent because he was a mason rather than because there was insufficient evidence of malpractice to convict him or the company. Again, standard conspiracy fare: someone is found innocent because of connections rather than because he is actually innocent (or at least cannot be proven guilty).
 
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If I were them, and the P2 is uncovered, I would not want anything to do with them.

Nor would I, but that would be the case regardless of whether it was because they were too close to the truth or because they were utterly opposed to my intentions.

This remains entirely speculation without proof on your part that the actions of P2 are part of a wider masonic conspiracy.

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I am not stating that I am wring because I am not convinced I am.

What would convince you? You must have seen that question asked a whole bunch of times on this forum so you can't claim you were not expecting to see it directed at you. I ask because you have a long history on this board of refusing to acknowledge anything that conflicts with your predetermined conclusions or whatever pet theory most appeals to you. At least in this case it's not as bad as disregarding the evidence of scientists in a scientific matter, which you also have a history of.

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It might be that they state it out according to what I post? I never said they made it clear they want to control.

No, what you are saying is that there is enough evidence out there that says they are out to control, to the point where they might as well be open about it because, according to you, it's clear anyway.

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anyhow, no point in continuing the discussion

And yet you came back to continue it...
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: gillianren on January 04, 2019, 11:11:26 AM
My point about LionKing's not being American was that much of the early anti-Masonic propaganda was specifically painting them as un-American.  Which presumably she has less reason to care about.  As to the cited author, about all the Wikipedia article has to say about him that doesn't read like his own press release is that he was sued for claiming that a Canadian university with Egyptian faculty is therefore a hotbed for terrorism, which . . . not great.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: bobdude11 on January 04, 2019, 01:00:34 PM
How do we know Lionking isn't a member of Toastmasters and that Toastmasters has chosen to begin an anti-Masons campaign?



/s (just in case)
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on January 05, 2019, 02:59:27 AM
I think the best argument is that they are against each other, like hafez assad and bashir gemayel, though both criminals were not expelled from freemasonry indicating the corruption.

Happy New Year😆😙
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Jason Thompson on January 05, 2019, 05:34:51 AM
Sooo..... two people in important positions in countries with opposed political views rise to power, which indicates corruption and, somehow, a global effort to control the world. They are not expelled from freemasonry, which indicates corruption. On the other hand, a group in Italy arund the same time is expelled, which also, somehow, indicates corruption.

I ask again, what would convince you otherwise, since every action and indovidual involved seems to be somehow evidence of some global conspiracy regardless of co-operation or conflict, explusion or retention?
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: LionKing on January 05, 2019, 06:58:00 AM
Sooo..... two people in important positions in countries with opposed political views rise to power, which indicates corruption and, somehow, a global effort to control the world. They are not expelled from freemasonry, which indicates corruption. On the other hand, a group in Italy arund the same time is expelled, which also, somehow, indicates corruption.

I ask again, what would convince you otherwise, since every action and indovidual involved seems to be somehow evidence of some global conspiracy regardless of co-operation or conflict, explusion

I am saying the argument of.opposed people is convincing somehow. But hat there is corruption and the corrupted politicians are not expelled indicates the freemasonry is not up to its standards. If it expelled the P2 based on conviction it is good, but they should expel the others who are  corrupt too.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Jason Thompson on January 05, 2019, 07:20:11 AM
But hat there is corruption and the corrupted politicians are not expelled indicates the freemasonry is not up to its standards. If it expelled the P2 based on conviction it is good, but they should expel the others who are  corrupt too.

That's a world away from a global conspiracy spanning the entire organisation, though, isn't it? Sadly corruption is rife in all walks of life, and turning a blind eye is pretty common.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: gillianren on January 05, 2019, 12:11:59 PM
More importantly, what would convince you that you were wrong?  You still didn't answer that.  Expelling all corrupt individuals?  You find me a single organization that has ever done that, and that becomes a reasonable standard.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: ineluki on January 05, 2019, 03:39:15 PM
Just because he is a "brother", Jack the Ripper was protected.

Just curios, given your high standards of disbelief whenever we explain you something... how have you determined that the article is the truth?
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Echnaton on January 06, 2019, 12:15:54 PM
I think the best argument is that they are against each other, like hafez assad and bashir gemayel, though both criminals were not expelled from freemasonry indicating the corruption.

Happy New Year😆😙
How would you know if someone were expelled from the Masons or not? AFAIK, they don't publish lists of members in good standing or issue press releases for expulsions.  Would you expect a local lodge or or Grand Lodge to expel a powerful leader in country run by martial law.  There is no universal or central authority among Masons. 
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: gillianren on January 10, 2019, 11:10:10 AM
I would also like to point out that this definitely belongs in conspiracy theories.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: Echnaton on January 11, 2019, 03:10:19 PM
As does almost everything LionKing brings up.
Title: Re: NASA and Freemasonry
Post by: gillianren on January 11, 2019, 07:49:32 PM
Indeed.