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Apollo Discussions => The Hoax Theory => Topic started by: ChrLz on February 28, 2012, 06:43:59 AM

Title: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: ChrLz on February 28, 2012, 06:43:59 AM
As reported at BAUT, it appears the British Interplanetary Society feels that Marcus Allen is worthy of a 'debate' on Apollo photographic 'anomalies'.

http://www.bis-space.com/2012/01/25/3529/perceived-anomalies-in-the-apollo-lunar-surface-images (http://www.bis-space.com/2012/01/25/3529/perceived-anomalies-in-the-apollo-lunar-surface-images)

I find this quite disturbing, and cannot understand why the BIS would give such a soapbox to this pretender, who seems to have gone to the David Percy School of Photographic Ignorance.

Shallow 'debates' such as this are more a test of the person's debating skill than any form of scientific appraisal and by giving him this opportunity BIS are, in my opinion, lowering themselves into the gutter.  And I think the misguided person who has agreed to 'debate' him - and thereby lend him credibility - is also doing the Apollo program a great disservice.  No matter what the outcome, the mere fact that this 'debate' took place with the sanction of the BIS is going to be usable by the denier's camp.

NOT happy!!  I've used the BIS feedback page to lodge my protest.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Tedward on February 28, 2012, 07:10:05 AM
I suppose it is down to how it is controlled. The host or person in charge or whatever needs to be un biased and able to wield the naughty stick that both respect. No barracking and if evidence is presented, that is pictures etc, then the topic is not side tracked until it is explored. This raises issues with time but the formalities need to be adhered to.

Does that make sense?

Edit (last sentence is cos I am not sure I have put my bit across in the right way)
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Echnaton on February 28, 2012, 07:29:13 AM
The text in the link indicates it will be a presentation of "anomalies" following by a rebuttal.  Under those controlled circumstances it may not be a disaster.  Still, it is not a good idea to give HBs a prestigious podium to talk from.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: ChrLz on February 28, 2012, 07:30:26 AM
Tedward - I get what you are saying, but I think the damage is already done.

Thing is, (particularly if you are a respected institution) you don't invite someone to a debate unless you think they have something worthwhile to say - so BIS are implicitly saying that Allen is qualified, and that there are anomalies in Apollo photographs.

He isn't.

There aren't.



Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Chew on February 28, 2012, 01:43:01 PM
The text in the link indicates it will be a presentation of "anomalies" following by a rebuttal. Under those controlled circumstances it may not be a disaster.  Still, it is not a good idea to give HBs a prestigious podium to talk from.

Everything else said about a prestigious science institute giving a conspiracy loon undeserved publicity notwithstanding, as long as Allen's presentation was given to the man who will attempt to rebut it long before the debate and Allen is forbidden to discuss material not in his presentation then it shouldn't be a complete disaster. If Allen's opponent doesn't know what Allen will be presenting then Allen will wipe up the floor with him. I can only assume the man at the BIS who approved this is completely ignorant of the low-ball tactics used by pseudoscientists.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Glom on February 28, 2012, 02:31:50 PM
Will it be podcast?

I get the feeling we're going to be judging the BIS guy more than the HBer.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Tedward on February 28, 2012, 04:12:25 PM
Something that worries me is this slipping out of living memory. If this event is held under control and not hijacked maybe it will not be so bad.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: dwight on March 01, 2012, 07:06:01 PM
I got a very nice response from the BIS. They know what they are doing and are well aware of the tactics they will be facing.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: ka9q on March 01, 2012, 09:29:33 PM
I got a very nice response from the BIS. They know what they are doing and are well aware of the tactics they will be facing.
So how will they deal with him? I do think that just having a good moderator to stop ad-hominem attacks and Gish-galloping would go a very long way. Once you start a topic, you have to finish it; you don't get to just abandon it in midstream and jump to another one and another one.

Unfortunately this tends to go against the perception that modern audiences have 10-second attention spans. Even my favorite TV show, Mythbusters, constantly interleaves several stories at once for fear of boring their audience. I'd like to have an automatic editing program that reorders the show into one subject at a time.




Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: ChrLz on March 02, 2012, 05:45:28 AM
I got a very nice response from the BIS. They know what they are doing and are well aware of the tactics they will be facing.

Hmm.  I certainly hope so, and I'll be delighted to say I was wrong and congratulate them on how well it went, after the event...


Perhaps you can ask them who will be their next similarly qualified and credible guest - Nancy Lieder invited to speak on 'Dangers to Earth from NEOs', perhaps?  Tell them to ask her about her dog..

I apologise for the sarcasm - which may be proven to be misdirected towards BIS, but my original point still stands - if an organisation like them invites people like these to have a debate, you are essentially presenting them with a credibility badge..
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: gwiz on April 06, 2012, 06:37:49 AM
Did anyone here go to the meeting?  If so, a report would be welcome.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: ka9q on April 06, 2012, 09:31:06 AM
but my original point still stands - if an organisation like them invites people like these to have a debate, you are essentially presenting them with a credibility badge..
Unless they lose said debate so very badly that even they know it.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: ChrLz on April 07, 2012, 12:10:00 AM
Yes, but the only folks who will see that are us (or at least hopefully we will, at some point..).

The deniers will likely present their own version of who won, concentrating on the fact that Marcus Allen was invited to the BIS to present a case and therefore must have had one.. and it may have the effect of generating a few new Patrick1000/fattydashes..  Who knows for sure.


But, to add to (or perhaps subtract from!) the topic I did a little more digging and found this BIS Apology, which I believe is genuine - it is quoted elsewhere..
http://fpmail.friends-partners.org/pipermail/fpspace/2012-January/030277.html (http://fpmail.friends-partners.org/pipermail/fpspace/2012-January/030277.html)
 :o
So it was originally to be titled "Apollo Moon Landing - Fact or Fiction?"... and the statement includes the following (my emphasis):
Quote
An Apology... for the Mistaken Announcement of the 'Apollo Moon Landing - Fact or Fiction?' Lecture.
...The original intention had been to discuss the photographic evidence from the Apollo Moon Landings and rebut any hoax theories that are based on suggested anomalies in these photographs.  Marcus Allen was invited to explain these anomalies, but the summary he supplied for the announcement was not what was agreed and wrongly gave the impression that he would, at the invitation of the BIS, be presenting the whole hoax theory! 
This was certainly not the case and the BIS has already received an apology from Marcus Allen
for the upset he has caused by, in haste, submitting the wrong brief.
The BIS does not and has never given credence to any suggestions that the Apollo Programme did not land men on the Moon or was in any sense a hoax.  In order to ensure that such misleading announcements will never be made again, the BIS is reviewing its procedures and will be introducing an approval system which will require at least 3 Council Members to clear every event announcement before it goes to print or out on the website.
The BIS is now considering whether to restructure the Apollo Moon Landing lecture for the evening of 4 April or find a new subject, and speaker, altogether.
So, they don't give any credence to it.. yet it's worth an event and they still decided to go ahead with the revised version...  Even weirder, they seem to blame Marcus Allen for trying to widen the scope, when it was the BIS who obviously were naming and organising the event.  Good Grief.

It seems that they were pulled up very quickly on the first announcement of the 'Apollo Moon Landing - Fact or Fiction?'' event, eg see here for a lively discussion.. (http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum23/HTML/002740.html)

I'm sorry BIS, but I agree with the more vociferous of the complainants at that second link...
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: twik on April 15, 2012, 12:39:51 PM
I suspect that they have hired a new PR person who was told to "make our programs more modern and appealing to a young audience". This person thought, "hmm, half the programs on 'science' tv now are paranormal/conspiracy shows. Hey, let's do the Moon Hoax! That'll bring in a bunch of people who are interested in more than this boring sciency stuff that I can't make sound hip no matter how hard I try."

Now, they're trying to backpedal. I suppose they can't openly say, "We asked Allen here so we could point and laugh."
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: ChrLz on April 15, 2012, 06:37:30 PM
I can't see any comments online from anyone who might have gone.  I've asked BIS if they have a video/transcript/report/review of the event...  I shall report back.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: ChrLz on May 03, 2012, 07:10:31 AM
.. And I have to report back that:

1. The British Interplanetary Society have not responded to my request for information about the event, eg a transcript, video or even acknowledgement that it went ahead.

2. Googling doesn't seem to show anything - does anyone know if the event actually took place?

One 'good' thing is that googling Marcus Allen + BIS turns up this thread as the top link..   :P
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: BazBear on May 04, 2012, 12:36:28 AM
Whenever I see this thread title, all I can think of is this Marcus Allen.
(http://www.profootballhof.com/assets/Allen_Marcus_Action_180-220.jpg)
Maybe we could arrange a "debate" between the two Marcus Allens...

...in full pads and helmets of course *Boom!*  ;)
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: raven on May 04, 2012, 04:29:10 PM
Apparently the Director of Medical Research and Operations was a Doctor Charles A. Berry.
I wonder if ol' Chuck ever did music . . .
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: twik on May 04, 2012, 10:13:17 PM
Whenever I see this thread title, all I can think of is this Marcus Allen.
(http://www.profootballhof.com/assets/Allen_Marcus_Action_180-220.jpg)


You too?
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: gwiz on May 08, 2012, 04:28:19 AM
There's a report of the meeting in the latest issue of Spaceflight magazine.  According to that, Marcus Allen said he didn't take issue with the Apollo landings, just the photographic record.  At the end, he appeared to be having second thoughts about his claims, having never before had the experience of having an educated audience rebut every claim.

He has now joined the BIS.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: twik on May 08, 2012, 09:27:24 AM
Lol!

(Sorry for the internetspeak, but I can't think of anything else to indicate just how funny that is.)
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: ka9q on May 08, 2012, 02:25:05 PM
This is remarkable, a hoax proponent changing his mind when given facts and logic. He really ought to be commended; that's extremely rare.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: JayUtah on May 08, 2012, 03:23:34 PM
...having never before had the experience of having an educated audience rebut every claim.

Yeah, that's the key.  Don't depend for your credibility on audiences that are ill-equipped and uninterested in testing you.  I'm glad he was persuaded to see reason.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: JayUtah on May 08, 2012, 03:26:50 PM
This is remarkable, a hoax proponent changing his mind when given facts and logic. He really ought to be commended; that's extremely rare.

Indeed, and I can attest to how humbling it is to realize all along how wrong you've been, and how everyone but you has seen it for quite a long time.  To have taken such a public position against the Apollo photography and then to have to eat public crow is not a fun circumstance.  I hope people continue to recognize what a big step he's taken.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: DataCable on May 08, 2012, 09:10:36 PM
At the end, he appeared to be having second thoughts about his claims, having never before had the experience of having an educated audience rebut every claim.
Translation:  NASA got to him and he's now receiving a gub'mint shill paycheck.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: raven on May 08, 2012, 09:17:52 PM
At the end, he appeared to be having second thoughts about his claims, having never before had the experience of having an educated audience rebut every claim.
Translation:  NASA got to him and he's now receiving a gub'mint shill paycheck.
If he's getting one, where's mine? ;D
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: gillianren on May 08, 2012, 10:55:28 PM
I, for one, could really use the money.  Car troubles.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: ChrLz on May 09, 2012, 04:32:03 AM
There's a report of the meeting in the latest issue of Spaceflight magazine.  According to that, Marcus Allen said he didn't take issue with the Apollo landings, just the photographic record.  At the end, he appeared to be having second thoughts about his claims, having never before had the experience of having an educated audience rebut every claim.

He has now joined the BIS.

Gee whiz, gwiz!  Thank you very much for that report - I sit here rather stunned...  I'd *really* like to see that issue - I presume it will get webified at some point, in the meantime I shall try to hunt it down at local newsagencies..

I am wondering, if there really has been a change of heart, whether Marcus Allen will now be as eager to admit he was wrong, as he has been (over many years) to express his views that the missions were likely faked.  If he does, I shall also applaud him, but I'll wait to see what happens.  Will this be reported in detail in the next issue of his magazine, I wonder?

Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Zakalwe on May 18, 2012, 02:42:40 AM

Gee whiz, gwiz!  Thank you very much for that report - I sit here rather stunned...  I'd *really* like to see that issue - I presume it will get webified at some point, in the meantime I shall try to hunt it down at local newsagencies..


Here you go (hopefully I havent broken any copyrights by doing this):

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/Gadfium/Forum%20Uploads/th_19e6ac0e.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/Gadfium/Forum%20Uploads/19e6ac0e.jpg)
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: ChrLz on May 18, 2012, 06:14:42 AM
Here you go (hopefully I havent broken any copyrights by doing this):
That is great!  Thanks so much, Zakalwe.  I couldn't find it locally, and was too cheap to order it over the web..  Given this usage is for educational purposes, may I continue by ocr-ing some interesting quotes from that article:

Quote
Many BIS Members and Fellows challenged the need for the Society to hold such a debate, not a few seeing it as pandering to the 'fringe' conspiracy groups supporting the notion that humans never landed on the moon. A waste of time, well, those expecting a fiery confrontation with noted sceptic Marcus Allen were confounded, for it did not turn out that way at all. It turned out that Marcus Allen and the BIS learned more than they expected.
...
The most impressive aspect to this fascinating evening was the dignity of the audience, the respect for personal opinion displayed by those present, and by the extended interchange where Apollo veterans in the audience contributed in a knowledgeable way.
...
When asked by Spaceflight Editor David Baker to define the precise position he takes, Marcus Allen asserted that he does not challenge the fact that Apollo astronauts landed on the moon. This is contradictory to his published position and the view he takes on radio and TV interviews.
...
...the BIS was able to answer each and every aspect of the photography challenged by Mr Allen. In fact, in closing, he thanked his audience and said that he had never had such a comprehensive and convincing set of rebuttals from any group he had ever spoken to. He openly admitted that this one evening had done a great deal to lie to rest several misgivings he had previously held.
...
the BIS learned a lot too that it would perhaps not have understood had the event not taken place. That rather than being diehard zealots, many who have misgivings about the Apollo landings are ignorant of the facts simply because they have been unable to access explanations in an understandable form.
...
In the best possible expression of what the BIS stands for, this evening debate helped demolish myths previously believed by Marcus Allen and enabled all those present to receive a first class lesson in a logical and dignified manner. And the best bit of all? Marcus Allen has joined the BIS!

I'm still letting this sink in..  While I will concede that this seems to have gone very well for the side of truth, there were some interesting statements in it, esp. the bits I have bolded, about Mr Allen now backing away from his Apollo denial, and the fact that somehow people like him 'are unable to access' the facts.  What, is clavius.org too hard to find?? - and this guy's a researcher?  Doesn't he even watch MythBusters?  save me...

Be interested to hear comments.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Zakalwe on May 18, 2012, 06:24:03 AM

That is great!  Thanks so much, Zakalwe.  I couldn't find it locally, and was too cheap to order it over the web.. 

Glad you found it useful. I ordered the magazine (I live in the UK) on Tuesday and it arrived yesterday.


I'm still letting this sink in..  While I will concede that this seems to have gone very well for the side of truth, there were some interesting statements in it, esp. the bits I have bolded, about Mr Allen now backing away from his Apollo denial, and the fact that somehow people like him 'are unable to access' the facts.  What, is clavius.org too hard to find?? - and this guy's a researcher?  Doesn't he even watch MythBusters?  save me...

Be interested to hear comments.

I assume that he [Allen] approaches his research in the way that may HBs seem to...by wearing a set of blinkers that means that contrary evidence to their viewpoint is ignored. My own experience with HBs seems to split them into 2 camps: the ignorant- those that simply have never researched the evidence for Apollo; and the die-hard believers in conspiracies- this group seem to have a desire/willingness/need to believe in conspiracies (often they are not bothered about WHICH conspiracy...as long as they get to hold some secret knowledge that the rest of the "sheep" do not have).

It'll be interesting to see if Mr. Allen publishes a retraction in his magazine, though I will not be buying it (the magazine). If he does, then I put him in the first group, if he doesn't then he is firmly in the latter group.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: ineluki on May 18, 2012, 09:38:57 AM
Translation:  NASA got to him and he's now receiving a gub'mint shill paycheck.
If he's getting one, where's mine? ;D

From my topsecret NWO contact:
Due to budget cuts they are restricted to paying off Moonhoaxers, who are already well known and sane enough* to be a danger to the official record.

* unfortunately for them, that excludes P1K, FF, t....nium and a few others
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Echnaton on May 18, 2012, 12:10:11 PM
It is a nice recounting of pleasant, gentlemanly debate, which I suppose is the intended purpose.   Although the actual points debated were not presented.  At least the article opened the question of the contradiction between Allen's previous comments of the missions being faked and his position at the debate of accepting the reality of the  Apollo moon landings.   It is too bad the contradiction was placed outside the scope of the debate.  I wonder if that was a deliberate ploy by Allen to save himself from being completely humiliated. 

Thanks for finding the article.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: BazBear on May 18, 2012, 12:11:44 PM
What, no more disinfo payments?! Okay, I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore! It's time to launch Operation: Occupy NASA! ;)
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Chew on May 18, 2012, 12:26:47 PM
I don't believe Allen really changed his mind. I'll bet anyone a silver quarter the next time he makes a public comment he will repeat all the bullcrap he said before.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Echnaton on May 18, 2012, 12:32:38 PM
What, no more disinfo payments?! Okay, I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore! It's time to launch Operation: Occupy NASA! ;)

Come on to Houston, the mayor was very cooperative with the small occupy Houston crowd.  We can set up at the JSC rocket park, there is an air conditioned building and we can sleep inside the Saturn 5 inter-stage sections.  How cool would that be?
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Echnaton on May 18, 2012, 12:35:47 PM
I don't believe Allen really changed his mind. I'll bet anyone a silver quarter the next time he makes a public comment he will repeat all the bullcrap he said before.

Tactical debating.    His readers will undoubtedly understand the nod and wink he gives to them while he gets to bask in the "glory" of presenting to a real science society.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: gillianren on May 18, 2012, 01:02:49 PM
I'm sorry; I just have a hard time buying, "Ooops!  I just didn't know!"  Because if you're that ignorant of something, you have no right being so vocal against it.  And, as has been said, it's not like the Apollo record is difficult to research.  How dare he?  How dare he make a big enough nuisance of himself to have been prominent enough to have been invited to the thing in the first place if one audience's knowing what they're talking about is enough to change his mind?  Good on him if he really did change his mind, of course, and if he did, he'd better be at least as vocal against the hoax now as he was for it, but I'll believe that when I see it.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: twik on May 18, 2012, 01:18:16 PM
Come on to Houston, the mayor was very cooperative with the small occupy Houston crowd.  We can set up at the JSC rocket park, there is an air conditioned building and we can sleep inside the Saturn 5 inter-stage sections.  How cool would that be?

How powerful is the air conditioning?
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Valis on May 18, 2012, 01:58:40 PM
I too remain skeptical about this change of heart. I don't know the guy (and I'm not that familiar with the moon hoax "scene" either), but it doesn't sound plausible. His evidence of the hoax was a few pics that looked odd to him. So what? Even if a few pics were made for PR reasons, where did all the other evidence of Apollo's reality go? I find it very hard to believe that a person a) was not aware of all the other Apollo evidence, b) was still famous enough to get to speak at a notable scientific event, and c) was not aware of all the freely and very easily available retributions to his objections about the pictures. As pure conjecture, my guess would be that he knew that all his "evidence" was wrong, so he grabbed the speaker pay (if there was any), and the free publicity.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Echnaton on May 18, 2012, 02:55:57 PM
Come on to Houston, the mayor was very cooperative with the small occupy Houston crowd.  We can set up at the JSC rocket park, there is an air conditioned building and we can sleep inside the Saturn 5 inter-stage sections.  How cool would that be?

How powerful is the air conditioning?

Enough to keep the Saturn 5 building comfortable at mid day at the height of the summer heat.  OTOH, if the "Agency" pulls the power, it will turn from a refuge into an oven in short order.  But we new the chances when we signed up as disinfo agents, or at least thought we did?
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: BazBear on May 18, 2012, 11:58:17 PM
What, no more disinfo payments?! Okay, I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore! It's time to launch Operation: Occupy NASA! ;)

Come on to Houston, the mayor was very cooperative with the small occupy Houston crowd.  We can set up at the JSC rocket park, there is an air conditioned building and we can sleep inside the Saturn 5 inter-stage sections.  How cool would that be?
Now that sounds like a plan! ;D
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Kiwi on May 19, 2012, 11:02:53 AM

That is great!  Thanks so much, Zakalwe.  I couldn't find it locally, and was too cheap to order it over the web.. 

Glad you found it useful. I ordered the magazine (I live in the UK) on Tuesday and it arrived yesterday.

Many thanks to you two guys -- it's really great to get the good oil.

Please, Zakalwe, could you post for us full bibliographical info about the issue.  Full details of magazine, date, pages etc.  Sorry if you've already done that, but if so, I missed it.  Brain has been on holiday recently.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Kiwi on May 19, 2012, 11:37:00 AM
...if you're that ignorant of something, you have no right being so vocal against it.

That is exactly what I think, and probably other members do too.  But that's the trouble: the ignorant are very vocal.

If there's one word I would use to describe most hoax-believers, it's that one:  Ignorant.  Not overall, of course, but as ignorant about Apollo as I am about embroidery.  And often, sadly, they don't know what they are ignorant about and we don't know what we are ignorant about.

I used to buy every issue of the Australia/New Zealand edition of Nexus magazine for years, but not any more since I learnt about logical fallacies, thanks to the Bad Astronomy Bulletin Board and ApolloHoax.  There were a few people who taught me, and the best was JayUtah.  I looked and looked for a Beginners' Logic website that started with things like answering the question, "Why would I want to think logically?" but never found one.  All those I looked at were for advanced learners.  I want one to which I can send beginners.

It was through Nexus that I corresponded with Ralph Rene.  They published an article about his Apollo claims and I sent them my debunking of it but they didn't use it.

Then when I heard Marcus Allen of the British edition speaking, saying he was a photographer and rubbishing the Apollo photos, I was astonished at how ignorant he was of photographic principles that were quite basic to me, and probably part of many of the beginners' and advanced courses I taught.  He didn't seem to be much more knowledgeable than Rene, who was not a photographer.

I was keen to contact Allen, but other circumstances kept me from doing it.

I guess it is in the monetary interests of the Nexus publishers to keep the conspiracy and "alien spacecraft" and mystery stuff going, and to occasionally publish only the mildest dissent in the letters column to keep up appearances of being balanced.

Certainly, if Allen publishes details of his recent epiphany in Nexus I will be thrilled, and would want to congratulate him as a good, honest fellow-photographer who has integrity.  He owes it to his readers, but will it only come in a book costing the UK equivalent of US$39.95?

I hope not, and shall wait and see with interest.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: gillianren on May 19, 2012, 01:24:23 PM
And embroidery (about which I know quite a lot) is very simple.  Even more so compared to Apollo.  (Oh, you still get people who apparently know how the item you're selling isn't worth what you're charging despite having taken thirty hours or more to make, but that's different.)  A lot of things that people don't know anything about are.  I know that the ignorant are vocal about it; I just don't think they have a right to be.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Daggerstab on May 20, 2012, 05:36:11 AM
I really should be doing other things now, but...

Here's video from the event:




And here is how they see it at Aulis:
http://www.aulis.com/allen_bis.htm
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: ChrLz on May 20, 2012, 07:50:39 AM
I really should be doing other things now
Me too, but... :D  Thanks for the youtube links - maybe if my broadband connection ever works properly (Hi, Vodafone..) I'll watch them.

Quote
And here is how they see it at Aulis:
http://www.aulis.com/allen_bis.htm

On my goodness!  I have just had a look at that.. and saved the page to my hd (I ain't giving them any more than one hit) for a good old fashioned shredding ..er.. analysis.

But I might start a new thread and give out a challenge to AULIS and in particular "MDM Bennett" who is listed as the article author.  Who or what is an 'MDM Bennett'?

I'd be happy to go through every claim made on that page and give it the credibility it oh-so deserves...  Not by handwaving and unsupported claims as per the usual Aulis technique, but via cited, referenced, logical, step by step analysis.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: scooter on May 20, 2012, 11:19:31 PM
But I might start a new thread and give out a challenge to AULIS and in particular "MDM Bennett" who is listed as the article author.  Who or what is an 'MDM Bennett'?


perhaps "Madam"?
Title: Re: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Glom on May 21, 2012, 01:24:51 AM
What, no more disinfo payments?! Okay, I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore! It's time to launch Operation: Occupy NASA! ;)

Come on to Houston, the mayor was very cooperative with the small occupy Houston crowd.  We can set up at the JSC rocket park, there is an air conditioned building and we can sleep inside the Saturn 5 inter-stage sections.  How cool would that be?

Sleep inside a Saturn V? Who do you think you are? Pete Conrad?
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Zakalwe on May 21, 2012, 03:16:23 AM


Many thanks to you two guys -- it's really great to get the good oil.

Please, Zakalwe, could you post for us full bibliographical info about the issue.  Full details of magazine, date, pages etc.  Sorry if you've already done that, but if so, I missed it.  Brain has been on holiday recently.

Here you go: LINK (http://www.bis-space.com/products-page/magazines-and-journals/spaceflight-magazine/spaceflight-vol-54-no-06-june-2012/)

P 237 Spaceflight magazine Vol 54 No 06. June 2012
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Echnaton on May 21, 2012, 06:54:55 AM
Sleep inside a Saturn V? Who do you think you are? Pete Conrad?
In my dreams.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Kiwi on May 22, 2012, 10:09:54 AM
Who or what is an 'MDM Bennett'?

Mary D M Bennett, co-author with David S Percy of:
Dark Moon -- Apollo and the Whistle-Blowers, Mary Bennett and David S Percy, Aulis Publishers, London, 1999.
Also Editor of The Only Planet of Choice., Gateway Books.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: JayUtah on May 22, 2012, 12:46:57 PM
If there's one word I would use to describe most hoax-believers, it's that one:  Ignorant.

I agree, but to be accurate we have to qualify that as "willfully ignorant."  Ignorance per se is sufferable.  I know as little about embroidery as you do, and although we wallow in ignorance we are smart enough not to profess expertise -- especially among those who are highly skilled at it, such as my sister.  I don't go to museums, look at the elaborate tapestries, and proclaim them fakes just because I lack the skill and patience to execute them.

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There were a few people who taught me, and the best was JayUtah.

Thank you for that.  I continue to be humbled and pleased that my efforts actually matter.  At the risk of blowing my own horn, this thread http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=235690 was originally posted in the JREF Conspiracy Theory section but has since been moved to a members-only section.  For those who aren't JREF members, it's a list of nominations for outstanding posters, which mentions me among several others.  I am always flattered and humbled to read things like this from people.

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Then when I heard Marcus Allen of the British edition speaking, saying he was a photographer and rubbishing the Apollo photos, I was astonished at how ignorant he was of photographic principles that were quite basic to me, and probably part of many of the beginners' and advanced courses I taught.  He didn't seem to be much more knowledgeable than Rene, who was not a photographer.

These days anyone can be a "photographer" in the sense that nearly everyone these days owns at least one camera.  The explosion of camera ownership and digital publication via Flickr, etc. gives the impression that a lot of people are photographers.  But as say, there is much to be learned about good photography, from both the artistic perspective and the technical side.  So many of these self-proclaimed photographers know almost nothing about the principles of photography that apply to their claims.

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I guess it is in the monetary interests of the Nexus publishers to keep the conspiracy and "alien spacecraft" and mystery stuff going, and to occasionally publish only the mildest dissent in the letters column to keep up appearances of being balanced.

Well, you never know.  Richard Hoagland and the Enterprise Mission do a fairly good job of appealing to the standard woo-woo crowd but at the same time adamantly supporting the claim that the Moon landings were real.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Chew on May 22, 2012, 05:54:15 PM
Yeah but Hoagland et al only support the Moon landings because it fits their ideology about alien structures on the Moon, not because of the evidence for it.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Chew on May 22, 2012, 09:56:25 PM
I really should be doing other things now, but...

Here's video from the event:


I'm paraphrasing Allen here but he said, "... picture taken to ensure the landing leg isn't damaged so they can take off again."

Oh, man. I haven't gotten to parts 2 and 3 yet but I hope someone ripped out his asshole with a rusty chainsaw for saying that.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Chew on May 22, 2012, 11:10:04 PM
Everything else said about a prestigious science institute giving a conspiracy loon undeserved publicity notwithstanding, as long as Allen's presentation was given to the man who will attempt to rebut it long before the debate and Allen is forbidden to discuss material not in his presentation then it shouldn't be a complete disaster.

Yep. Allen ambushed him. At the start of part 2 Stone says he asked Allen for the photos he was going to use but Allen introduced extra photos into his talk.

Good for Stone for discussing the implication of Allen's premise that men walked on the Moon but the photographic record was faked. Stone seems to be the only member of the BIS who was aware of the conspiracy mindset.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: VincentMcConnell on June 13, 2012, 10:26:53 PM
Marcus Allen is still around? LOL.
I thought he comes from the ancient days of the crowd around Bart Sibrel.
Title: Re: A sad development - Marcus Allen at the BIS?
Post by: Chew on July 29, 2013, 09:54:38 PM
You can't teach a conspiracy theorist new tricks. Nor how to evaluate evidence.

Talk on Moon landing hoax allegations - Local - Hastings and St. Leonards Observer (http://www.hastingsobserver.co.uk/news/local/talk-on-moon-landing-hoax-allegations-1-5324320)

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Marcus Allen, British distributor and publisher of Nexus, a bi-monthly alternative news magazine, is in Hastings on Saturday, August 3 at the Cinque Port pub in All Saints Street, from 2pm to 5.30pm.

During the talk, entitled The Apollo Moon Landings: Fact Or Fiction?, Marcus will be examining various pieces of evidence and theories that cast the whole historic event into doubt.
More at the link.