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Off Topic => General Discussion => Topic started by: bknight on August 29, 2015, 09:20:53 AM

Title: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on August 29, 2015, 09:20:53 AM
In the recent thread with Neil Baker concerning the PLSS, one link to the massive NASA vacuum Chamber A leads me to a question.
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/engineering/integrated_environments/altitude_environmental/chamber_A/
In the link NASA is in the process of a reconstruction project to allow the James Webb Space Telescope to be tested in the chamber.  I wonder whether NASA learned from a huge past mistake in the Hubble Space Telescope to checking every detail so this won't be another black eye for them?
We won't have a way of going to the telescope with people at least to fix a mistake.  Perhaps robots could be programmed to do repairs.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 29, 2015, 08:15:09 PM
I wonder whether NASA learned from a huge past mistake in the Hubble Space Telescope to checking every detail so this won't be another black eye for them?

What black eye, are you referring to the problem with the correction to Hubble's mirror?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on August 29, 2015, 08:30:44 PM
Yes, sir.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 29, 2015, 08:56:52 PM
Yes, sir.

Well, unless others here want to correct me, a vacuum test would not have picked up that error. The error in the mirror was due to a contractor rushing a step in the calibration of an interferometer.

http://carpetbomberz.com/2012/04/05/charlie-pellerin-on-leadership/
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on August 29, 2015, 09:18:47 PM

Well, unless others here want to correct me, a vacuum test would not have picked up that error. The error in the mirror was due to a contractor rushing a step in the calibration of an interferometer.

http://carpetbomberz.com/2012/04/05/charlie-pellerin-on-leadership/
Actually I wasn't thinking about a vacuum chamber test, the article said they were remodeling it to accommodate the telescope.  I was rather hoping the guys in charge would check out all the mirrors and alignments so we don't have a repeat of Hubble.
I guess I didn't have enough coffee when I penned that this morning.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Luke Pemberton on August 30, 2015, 10:00:30 AM
Actually I wasn't thinking about a vacuum chamber test, the article said they were remodeling it to accommodate the telescope.  I was rather hoping the guys in charge would check out all the mirrors and alignments so we don't have a repeat of Hubble.

I would would like to hope too that they learn lessons from the Hubble mirror problem. The JWST mirror is impressive and there are many different problems with its deployment compared to Hubble. I should imagine that the mirror polishing was overseen to avoid the quality control issues that almost ended Hubble before it started.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on August 30, 2015, 10:13:05 AM

I would would like to hope too that they learn lessons from the Hubble mirror problem. The JWST mirror is impressive and there are many different problems with its deployment compared to Hubble. I should imagine that the mirror polishing was overseen to avoid the quality control issues that almost ended Hubble before it started.

I hold the same hope.  NASA has done remarkable missions, but every so often the smallest overlooked problem derails their performance. Not to throw stones but:
1. Miscalculation of distance parameters allows Mars probe to crach into the surface.
2. O-ring problems with the external SRB's didn't pose a significant threat to any mission until Challenger
3. Foam strikes observed on many/all(?) of shuttle launches didn't pose a threat until Columbia.
4. Mirror imperfections in Hubble even during 1-2 years in cold storage waiting for the Shuttle to regain flight status.
That's all I can remember at this time.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Allan F on August 30, 2015, 03:39:57 PM
5: Testing shoddy wiring and flammable materials in a high-pressure pure O2 atmosphere.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on August 30, 2015, 04:09:57 PM
5: Testing shoddy wiring and flammable materials in a high-pressure pure O2 atmosphere.

Yes that was a biggie.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: smartcooky on August 30, 2015, 05:31:41 PM
Yes, sir.

Well, unless others here want to correct me, a vacuum test would not have picked up that error. The error in the mirror was due to a contractor rushing a step in the calibration of an interferometer.

http://carpetbomberz.com/2012/04/05/charlie-pellerin-on-leadership/



I think he means just do some bloody testing before committing to launch.

Hubble was undone by budget cuts and pressure to finish the task. This resulted in short cuts being taken, and one of those short cuts was to not test the mirror. A simple focault test (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foucault_knife-edge_test) at ANY stage before the mirror was installed would have picked up the problems with the mirror's "figure". Even an amateur telescope maker wouldn't dream of installing his newly ground and aluminised mirror into the tube without doing a focault test.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: ka9q on August 30, 2015, 10:46:52 PM
2. O-ring problems with the external SRB's didn't pose a significant threat to any mission until Challenger
3. Foam strikes observed on many/all(?) of shuttle launches didn't pose a threat until Columbia.
For these two at least, there were plenty of warnings before the disaster that simply went unheeded.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on August 30, 2015, 10:52:58 PM
2. O-ring problems with the external SRB's didn't pose a significant threat to any mission until Challenger
3. Foam strikes observed on many/all(?) of shuttle launches didn't pose a threat until Columbia.
For these two at least, there were plenty of warnings before the disaster that simply went unheeded.
Yes these two had many occurrences, not a one off.  I was just trying to note where NASA, generally performing well in a rather hostile environment, seems to not check everything to ensure mission success from time to time.  Then  putting a whose checking the checker on the system.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on November 30, 2015, 07:18:25 AM
The mirrors are being installed, here's hoping they did it correctly this time.
http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-s-webb-space-telescope-receives-first-mirror-installation
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on February 05, 2016, 07:06:10 AM
The mirrors are installed.
http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasas-james-webb-space-telescope-primary-mirror-fully-assembled
My question what testing for the next two years will be done?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Dalhousie on February 05, 2016, 09:43:29 PM
2. O-ring problems with the external SRB's didn't pose a significant threat to any mission until Challenger
3. Foam strikes observed on many/all(?) of shuttle launches didn't pose a threat until Columbia.
For these two at least, there were plenty of warnings before the disaster that simply went unheeded.
Yes these two had many occurrences, not a one off.  I was just trying to note where NASA, generally performing well in a rather hostile environment, seems to not check everything to ensure mission success from time to time.  Then  putting a whose checking the checker on the system.

The Galileo antenna would be another one, several issues with Curiosity come to mind (the drills, the wheels) come to mind as areas where more checking would have been good.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on March 22, 2016, 01:30:49 PM
The JWST was tested in a cold vacuum chamber.  http://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/nasa-marks-major-milestones-for-the-james-webb-space-telescope

Don't tell our friend, Mr. Baker! :)
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: molesworth on April 19, 2016, 07:45:30 AM
The JWST was tested in a cold vacuum chamber.  http://www.NASA.gov/feature/goddard/2016/NASA-marks-major-milestones-for-the-james-webb-space-telescope
Just a note - the url needs to be in lower case to work.

On another note, my company is peripherally involved in JWST and a couple of our engineers were able to visit the people making the mirror control subsystem last week.  They were very impressed by the incredible accuracy of the system, so hopefully there won't be any out-of-focus images coming back this time  ;)

Quote
Don't tell our friend, Mr. Baker! :)
Ach, why not?  He might be willing to put his money where his mouth is to pay for the "proof" of his claims...  ;D

Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on April 19, 2016, 08:16:38 AM

On another note, my company is peripherally involved in JWST and a couple of our engineers were able to visit the people making the mirror control subsystem last week.  They were very impressed by the incredible accuracy of the system, so hopefully there won't be any out-of-focus images coming back this time  ;)

Don't tell our friend, Mr. Baker! :)
Ach, why not?  He might be willing to put his money where his mouth is to pay for the "proof" of his claims...  ;D
[/quote]
That is great to know.  I did do a copy of the address bar for the link, but if it needs lowercase so be it.
Baker putting his money up?  He would find some other objection to the testing process.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: smartcooky on April 19, 2016, 09:01:03 AM
Just a note - the url needs to be in lower case to work.

http://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/nasa-marks-major-milestones-for-the-james-webb-space-telescope

Well, there must be a problem with the software, because even when you post the link in lower case, the forum software is changing the n.a.s.a part of the url into upper case.

Perhaps its something that LunarOrbit can fix
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on April 19, 2016, 09:03:57 AM
Just a note - the url needs to be in lower case to work.

http://www.NASA.gov/feature/goddard/2016/NASA-marks-major-milestones-for-the-james-webb-space-telescope

Well, there must be a problem with the software, because even when you post the link in lower case, the forum software is changing the n.a.s.a part of the url into upper case.

Perhaps its something that LunarOrbit can fix
I believe this has been noted before, not sure how to edit it.  The friendly default is capitals as it should be, except for url's.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: smartcooky on April 19, 2016, 09:20:05 AM
Just a note - the url needs to be in lower case to work.

http://www.NASA.gov/feature/goddard/2016/NASA-marks-major-milestones-for-the-james-webb-space-telescope

Well, there must be a problem with the software, because even when you post the link in lower case, the forum software is changing the n.a.s.a part of the url into upper case.

Perhaps its something that LunarOrbit can fix
I believe this has been noted before, not sure how to edit it.  The friendly default is capitals as it should be, except for url's.

I think it could be fixed by making it only capitalise if there are spaces either side of it because the software does not capitalize "nasa" when it is part of another word...

"planasa strawberry"

URLs are defined in RFC 3986 which does not allow the use of spaces without encoding either a "+" or "%20", so it won't be an issue.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on April 19, 2016, 09:21:55 AM
That probably would work.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: LunarOrbit on April 19, 2016, 10:39:23 PM
Just a note - the url needs to be in lower case to work.

http://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/nasa-marks-major-milestones-for-the-james-webb-space-telescope

Well, there must be a problem with the software, because even when you post the link in lower case, the forum software is changing the n.a.s.a part of the url into upper case.

Perhaps its something that LunarOrbit can fix

Sorry about that. I've removed "nasa" from the forum's auto-correct. It would be nice if it would just ignore URLs, but unfortunately it doesn't.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: LunarOrbit on April 19, 2016, 10:45:56 PM
I think it could be fixed by making it only capitalise if there are spaces either side of it because the software does not capitalize "nasa" when it is part of another word...

I tried that, but the forum removes the spaces from either side of " nasa " when I tried adding that to the filter. No big deal, I can live with people using nasa instead of NASA.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on April 19, 2016, 11:33:44 PM
I think it could be fixed by making it only capitalise if there are spaces either side of it because the software does not capitalize "nasa" when it is part of another word...

I tried that, but the forum removes the spaces from either side of " nasa " when I tried adding that to the filter. No big deal, I can live with people using nasa instead of NASA.
Nice try anyway, LO
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on April 28, 2016, 07:41:23 AM
Covers removed and ready to start the testing prior to launch in 018.  The one aspect that disappoints me is the launch by ESA.
http://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/james-webb-space-telescopes-golden-mirror-unveiled
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: smartcooky on April 28, 2016, 08:55:31 PM
Covers removed and ready to start the testing prior to launch in 018.  The one aspect that disappoints me is the launch by ESA.
http://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/james-webb-space-telescopes-golden-mirror-unveiled

You mean instead of NASA? If so, I think that is the price they have paid for backing the wrong horse back in the 1970's in pursuing the Space Shuttle, especially after they came to realise that turnaround servicings were going to be hundreds, perhaps even thousands of times more complicated than what they had planned for...

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/naive-shuttle-concept.jpg)
This is what they wanted

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/ApolloHoax/the-cold-hard-reality.jpg)
This is what they got!!

They also played fast and loose with safety; administrators and bean counters ignoring the warnings of spacecraft engineers that what they were doing was dangerous and would lead to in-flight catastrophes. Had they listened, they might not have killed 14 astronauts. 

I wonder what lifting capability NASA would now have if they had carried on with Saturn and developed it to is full potential as it was upgraded with new avionics, electronics and computers. Saturn wasn't just a rocket to launch men to the moon, it was a system (a family of rockets) that was used to LEO as well.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on April 28, 2016, 09:35:00 PM
Yes I did mean instead of NASA.  I have often wondered if the F-1's and J-2's to closed cycle? Imagine what the output might have been.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Obviousman on April 29, 2016, 04:22:47 AM
Hmm - it's easy to criticise the design after it was built. Yes, the design was bastardised: the payload bay was changed, the launch configuration, the re-usability. The feasibility study used a completely unrealistic launch rate. However if they didn't build to the available funds, it wouldn't have ever been built (presumably).

That being said, the STS wasn't a lemon. In both cases of disaster, there were warnings regarding hazards that were ignored and could have possibly been mitigated against.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Luke Pemberton on April 30, 2016, 01:11:43 PM
Hmm - it's easy to criticise the design after it was built.

Have to agree. As a concept the shuttle was an incredible idea, it served its purpose well. It went into space and it returned. Would Hubble have been repaired without the shuttle? What impact did the shuttle program have on Russian-US relations?  When I was a kid, AirFix began making shuttle models with the shuttle piggy backed onto the back of a Boeing. The models were launched prior to the first launch. My father bought me the model and it utterly inspired my love of science. There are so many aspects of space programs that are not easily measurable, and in honesty, given the success of the shuttle. We should salute its achievements.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Dalhousie on May 08, 2016, 07:17:01 PM
Covers removed and ready to start the testing prior to launch in 018.  The one aspect that disappoints me is the launch by ESA.

Why? I think it is great.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on May 08, 2016, 07:27:33 PM
Covers removed and ready to start the testing prior to launch in 018.  The one aspect that disappoints me is the launch by ESA.

Why? I think it is great.
IMO it would be better if it were launched by NASA, that's all.  I believe the telescope will be of great benefit as Hubble though.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Dalhousie on May 09, 2016, 07:08:13 PM
Covers removed and ready to start the testing prior to launch in 018.  The one aspect that disappoints me is the launch by ESA.

Why? I think it is great.
IMO it would be better if it were launched by NASA, that's all.  I believe the telescope will be of great benefit as Hubble though.

Why would it be better?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on May 09, 2016, 07:29:30 PM
Covers removed and ready to start the testing prior to launch in 018.  The one aspect that disappoints me is the launch by ESA.

Why? I think it is great.
IMO it would be better if it were launched by NASA, that's all.  I believe the telescope will be of great benefit as Hubble though.

Why would it be better?
Not being dependent on another nation for our space business, much like being dependent on Russia for RD-180's.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: molesworth on May 10, 2016, 04:46:45 PM
Covers removed and ready to start the testing prior to launch in 018.  The one aspect that disappoints me is the launch by ESA.

Why? I think it is great.
IMO it would be better if it were launched by NASA, that's all.  I believe the telescope will be of great benefit as Hubble though.

Why would it be better?
Not being dependent on another nation for our space business, much like being dependent on Russia for RD-180's.

Well, I can understand there's an element of national pride involved, but wouldn't it be a better approach for all countries and agencies to cooperate and share technologies and facilities.  There may be cost and efficiency advantages to be gained overall, in the long term.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on May 10, 2016, 04:59:24 PM

Well, I can understand there's an element of national pride involved, but wouldn't it be a better approach for all countries and agencies to cooperate and share technologies and facilities.  There may be cost and efficiency advantages to be gained overall, in the long term.
In this case it is not pride, but rather not being dependent on another country for launches.  Of course it can be beneficial for all countries to work in harmony, but that isn't the issue in my thoughts.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Dalhousie on May 10, 2016, 09:42:47 PM

Well, I can understand there's an element of national pride involved, but wouldn't it be a better approach for all countries and agencies to cooperate and share technologies and facilities.  There may be cost and efficiency advantages to be gained overall, in the long term.
In this case it is not pride, but rather not being dependent on another country for launches.  Of course it can be beneficial for all countries to work in harmony, but that isn't the issue in my thoughts.

What bit of "collaboration" is hard to understand?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on May 10, 2016, 09:46:17 PM

Well, I can understand there's an element of national pride involved, but wouldn't it be a better approach for all countries and agencies to cooperate and share technologies and facilities.  There may be cost and efficiency advantages to be gained overall, in the long term.
In this case it is not pride, but rather not being dependent on another country for launches.  Of course it can be beneficial for all countries to work in harmony, but that isn't the issue in my thoughts.

What bit of "collaboration" is hard to understand?
In a word, none.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Dalhousie on May 10, 2016, 10:00:57 PM
So why object?  You do realise that the JWS is not an exclusively NASA project?  That ESA (and others) are involved as well?  That part of ESA's contribution is supply a launcher?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on May 10, 2016, 10:26:00 PM
Lets put the other shoe in the loop, how many non US satellites are launched by US rockets?  If there are no US rockets large enough to lift the JWST into orbit, I wonder why?  If there are why not use them?  Is putting a 5+Billion dollar investment into hands that we don't control the best use of funds?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Dalhousie on May 10, 2016, 10:33:07 PM
Lets put the other shoe in the loop, how many non US satellites are launched by US rockets?  If there are no US rockets large enough to lift the JWST into orbit, I wonder why?  If there are why not use them?  Is putting a 5+Billion dollar investment into hands that we don't control the best use of funds?

Why shouldn't an international mission be launched by a non-US rocket as part of the international contribution? 

Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on May 10, 2016, 10:47:18 PM

Why shouldn't an international mission be launched by a non-US rocket as part of the international contribution?
An international project? when the only part of the project come from ESA Euros, Canadian Space Agency 39 M and the US 4.5-6 B?
This discussion is pointless as you don't understand my misgivings nor can I impart those feelings.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Dalhousie on May 10, 2016, 10:59:43 PM

Why shouldn't an international mission be launched by a non-US rocket as part of the international contribution?
An international project? when the only part of the project come from ESA Euros, Canadian Space Agency 39 M and the US 4.5-6 B?
This discussion is pointless as you don't understand my misgivings nor can I impart those feelings.

ESA's contribution is described by NASA as "significant".  ESA is providing a launcher and all supporting services, one instrument, and equal contributor to a second.  Canada is supplying another instrument.  This makes it an international mission led by NASA.

Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Zakalwe on May 12, 2016, 04:48:27 AM
Not being dependent on another nation for our space business, much like being dependent on Russia for RD-180's.
I think that you are confusing a number of issues. The US was dependant on other countries for certain launches following the Shuttle retirement. However, JWST is an international collaboration involving 17 countries. It is NOT a pure NASA project that is having to rely on another country lifting it into space. The concept was designed from the start as an international collaboration.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on May 12, 2016, 08:22:40 AM
Not being dependent on another nation for our space business, much like being dependent on Russia for RD-180's.
I think that you are confusing a number of issues. The US was dependant on other countries for certain launches following the Shuttle retirement. However, JWST is an international collaboration involving 17 countries. It is NOT a pure NASA project that is having to rely on another country lifting it into space. The concept was designed from the start as an international collaboration.
No confusion here, and I do agree with your comment on the space agency being dependent when the shuttle program was ended.  This whole concept of not developing newer boosters is part and parcel of my concerns.

EDIT:
Here is some better news concerning developing newer boosters from NASA
http://www.spacepolicyonline.com/news/nasa-managers-sls-orion-on-track-for-2018-launch
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: 12oh2alarm on May 12, 2016, 12:55:53 PM

... Not to throw stones but:
1. Miscalculation of distance parameters allows Mars probe to crach into the surface.
2. O-ring problems with the external SRB's didn't pose a significant threat to any mission until Challenger
3. Foam strikes observed on many/all(?) of shuttle launches didn't pose a threat until Columbia.
4. Mirror imperfections in Hubble even during 1-2 years in cold storage waiting for the Shuttle to regain flight status.
That's all I can remember at this time.

Shit happens. So much so, it fills an entire book:
Springer, "Space System Failures (http://www.amazon.com/Space-Systems-Failures-Disasters-Satellites/dp/0387215190)", by David M. Harland and Ralph Lorenz with chapters on

1. The Missiles
2. The Shuttle
3. Back to Expendables
4. Heavyweights
5. Lightweights
6. Boom and Bust
7. The Chinese Experience
8. The Current Crop
9. Failures and Redundancy
10. Propulsion System Failures
11. Attitude Control System Failures
12. Electrical Failures
13. Environmental Failures
14. Structural Failures
15. Failures on the Ground
16. Operator and Software Errors
17. Conclusions

One more example: if you don't follow the "Count the bolts before you tilt the platform, mate!" protocol, a mishap might happen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOAA-19).
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Trebor on May 13, 2016, 07:35:42 AM
...
One more example: if you don't follow the "Count the bolts before you tilt the platform, mate!" protocol, a mishap might happen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOAA-19).
That's a bit embarrassing, you would think that checking your extremely costly bit of kit was actually attached to something before spinning it around would have been obvious.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on June 01, 2016, 01:41:30 PM
One step closer! :)
http://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/science-instruments-of-nasa-s-james-webb-space-telescope-successfully-installed

Science Instruments of NASA’s James Webb Space Telescope Successfully Installed
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Dalhousie on June 04, 2016, 02:09:03 AM
Still like Hank Green's video
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Glom on June 04, 2016, 05:10:48 AM
I suppose after seeing that, I should get out of bed and get back to work on my science thing.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: godscountry on June 04, 2016, 02:33:16 PM
Good point and lets not forget the loss of the 125 million dollar Mars Climate Orbiter spacecraft,due to the use of two different measuring systems by the engineering teams,one engineering team used the english system while the other team used the metric system,which resulted in navigational errors to the spacecraft.I would like to think NASA has implicated some new rules,along with a long list of QC checks.With a budget of 1/2 of one percent,you can't afford losses like that.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on June 04, 2016, 04:00:21 PM
I suppose after seeing that, I should get out of bed and get back to work on my science thing.

Instead of the insurance, health, infrastructure thing?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: ka9q on June 05, 2016, 03:56:05 AM
The specific units that were confused during Mars Climate Observer were those of force -- the thrust of the attitude control thrusters. They were used in a model to estimate the unwanted perturbations on the trajectory as a result of various attitude changes. The thruster manufacturer specified them in pounds-force and JPL interpreted them in newtons. A pound is bigger than a newton, so this underestimated the effect.

The spacecraft was on a collision course with the Martian atmosphere. The trajectory seemed off and the staff asked for more tracking time but was turned down by management. Had the extra tracking been done, they would have confirmed the problem with enough time to fix the problem.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Peter B on June 05, 2016, 04:54:38 AM
http://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/robotic-exploration/why-the-mars-probe-went-off-course

Superb article by James Oberg which details the problems with the spacecraft - or, more precisely, people and processes within JPL.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: smartcooky on June 05, 2016, 06:31:47 AM
http://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/robotic-exploration/why-the-mars-probe-went-off-course

Superb article by James Oberg which details the problems with the spacecraft - or, more precisely, people and processes within JPL.


What a complete and utter cock-up!!!

A multi million dollar probe was lost because people didn't fill in the correct forms.... that's bureaucrats for you!!!
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on June 05, 2016, 07:50:44 AM
This reminds me of a favorite saying in my profession:
Companies NEVER have enough money to perform an operation the right way, but they ALWAYS have enough money to fix the problem that was caused.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: BazBear on June 05, 2016, 03:28:47 PM
This reminds me of a favorite saying in my profession:
Companies NEVER have enough money to perform an operation the right way, but they ALWAYS have enough money to fix the problem that was caused.
Penny wise, dollar/pound foolish.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Allan F on June 05, 2016, 06:39:36 PM
http://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/robotic-exploration/why-the-mars-probe-went-off-course

Superb article by James Oberg which details the problems with the spacecraft - or, more precisely, people and processes within JPL.

Just like Apollo 1, Challenger and Columbia.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: smartcooky on June 05, 2016, 07:48:36 PM
http://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/robotic-exploration/why-the-mars-probe-went-off-course

Superb article by James Oberg which details the problems with the spacecraft - or, more precisely, people and processes within JPL.

Just like Apollo 1, Challenger and Columbia.


I agree, all avoidable tragedies.

This is especially so of Challenger as administrators in NASA ignored repeated warnings from Engineers that launching in freezing temperatures was dangerous. It was only a piece of blind luck (a small piece of aluminium oxide sealing a leak at the last moment) that prevented STS-51L from exploding right there on the launch pad.

In particular, fluid dynamics engineer Roger Boisjoly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Boisjoly) correctly predicted that the O-Rings would fail in the freezing temperatures. He was ignored, and that decision cost seven astronauts their lives.

In a further insult to Boisjoly, he was treated abysmally by his bosses and colleagues at Morton-Thiokol for telling the truth about what happened.

For mine, the Challenger disaster remains as one of the most disgraceful examples in spaceflight of bureaucratic negligence, right from the political pork-barrelling that resulted in the SRB's being made in Utah and needing to have O-Rings in the first place (a design compromise so that they could be transported to the Cape) to the ignoring of repeated warnings about the SRB's safety in cold conditions.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: ka9q on June 05, 2016, 07:53:02 PM
I think the Columbia disaster was worse. The technical details of the failure were different but the management failures were the same. They didn't learn from Challenger.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on June 05, 2016, 08:23:04 PM
I think the Columbia disaster was worse. The technical details of the failure were different but the management failures were the same. They didn't learn from Challenger.
I agree  100% with they didn't learn, which was the original intent of the thread, would the same type of mistake be made with JWST.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Peter B on June 06, 2016, 08:54:24 AM
http://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/robotic-exploration/why-the-mars-probe-went-off-course

Superb article by James Oberg which details the problems with the spacecraft - or, more precisely, people and processes within JPL.


What a complete and utter cock-up!!!

A multi million dollar probe was lost because people didn't fill in the correct forms.... that's bureaucrats for you!!!

I'd disagree that there's anything unique about the ability of bureaucrats to stuff up. In my experience people in private enterprise can manage it just as well.

A good example here in Australia in the last couple of years is how one of our two major supermarket chains, Woolworths, seems to have thrown away half a billion dollars on a largely failed hardware chain called Masters. They seemed to manage to do everything wrong: they opened stores a long way from where people lived (compared to the most popular chain which has stores in town centres); they managed to have their stock ranges out of season, thanks to being tied to an American chain; their staff included a lot of inexperienced juniors (compared to the most popular chain which employs a lot of retired tradesmen); and they engaged in a lot of pointless micromanagement (staff are required to park their cars tail-in).
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: sts60 on June 06, 2016, 09:28:26 AM
http://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/robotic-exploration/why-the-mars-probe-went-off-course

Superb article by James Oberg which details the problems with the spacecraft - or, more precisely, people and processes within JPL.

What a complete and utter cock-up!!!

A multi million dollar probe was lost because people didn't fill in the correct forms.... that's bureaucrats for you!!!

You should re-read the article.  It wasn't about "bureaucrats not filling in the right forms".  It was much more complicated than that
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: smartcooky on June 06, 2016, 11:07:20 PM
http://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/robotic-exploration/why-the-mars-probe-went-off-course

Superb article by James Oberg which details the problems with the spacecraft - or, more precisely, people and processes within JPL.

What a complete and utter cock-up!!!

A multi million dollar probe was lost because people didn't fill in the correct forms.... that's bureaucrats for you!!!

You should re-read the article.  It wasn't about "bureaucrats not filling in the right forms".  It was much more complicated than that

Oh, I am well aware of that, I was just pulling out a sound bite....

"Although the navigators continued to express concern about the spacecraft trajectory, NASA's Stephenson explained why there had been no management response. "They did not use the existing formal process for such concerns," he stated. JPL has a special form to invoke a so-called incident surprise and analysis procedure, and the navigators did not follow the rules about filling out that form to document their concerns."

Its this kind of bureaucracy that really pisses me off. I had it in the Air Force so I'm familiar with the types of pen-pushing shiny-arses who stand between safety and success. It is exactly this kind of attitude that results in things like the Challenger and Columbia disasters; the engineers warn of the dangers, the paper shufflers and bean-counters don't listen....BANG! More dead people!
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: sts60 on June 06, 2016, 11:47:47 PM
Ha, sorry.  I should have realized you understood it better. 

Although I don't have time right now to pontificate, this sort of thing is of much interest to me, as safety & mission assurance (S&MA) is basically what I currently do for a living. 
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on November 08, 2016, 05:48:23 PM
The ground test of the mirror's curvature.
http://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/nasa-completes-webb-telescope-center-of-curvature-pre-test
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on February 15, 2017, 05:55:41 PM
Good to have a back up plan for Hubble in case JWST fails.  There is a good animation of the deployment of JWST, so many places for a failure.  I hope that all goes well.

http://www.universetoday.com/133429/dream-chaser-spacecraft-may-used-hubble-repair-mission/
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Dalhousie on February 21, 2017, 10:08:51 PM
http://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/robotic-exploration/why-the-mars-probe-went-off-course

Superb article by James Oberg which details the problems with the spacecraft - or, more precisely, people and processes within JPL.

What a complete and utter cock-up!!!

A multi million dollar probe was lost because people didn't fill in the correct forms.... that's bureaucrats for you!!!

You should re-read the article.  It wasn't about "bureaucrats not filling in the right forms".  It was much more complicated than that

Oh, I am well aware of that, I was just pulling out a sound bite....

"Although the navigators continued to express concern about the spacecraft trajectory, NASA's Stephenson explained why there had been no management response. "They did not use the existing formal process for such concerns," he stated. JPL has a special form to invoke a so-called incident surprise and analysis procedure, and the navigators did not follow the rules about filling out that form to document their concerns."

Its this kind of bureaucracy that really pisses me off. I had it in the Air Force so I'm familiar with the types of pen-pushing shiny-arses who stand between safety and success. It is exactly this kind of attitude that results in things like the Challenger and Columbia disasters; the engineers warn of the dangers, the paper shufflers and bean-counters don't listen....BANG! More dead people!

How many people have military stuff ups killed? 
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: smartcooky on February 22, 2017, 05:22:41 AM
http://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/robotic-exploration/why-the-mars-probe-went-off-course

Superb article by James Oberg which details the problems with the spacecraft - or, more precisely, people and processes within JPL.

What a complete and utter cock-up!!!

A multi million dollar probe was lost because people didn't fill in the correct forms.... that's bureaucrats for you!!!

You should re-read the article.  It wasn't about "bureaucrats not filling in the right forms".  It was much more complicated than that

Oh, I am well aware of that, I was just pulling out a sound bite....

"Although the navigators continued to express concern about the spacecraft trajectory, NASA's Stephenson explained why there had been no management response. "They did not use the existing formal process for such concerns," he stated. JPL has a special form to invoke a so-called incident surprise and analysis procedure, and the navigators did not follow the rules about filling out that form to document their concerns."

Its this kind of bureaucracy that really pisses me off. I had it in the Air Force so I'm familiar with the types of pen-pushing shiny-arses who stand between safety and success. It is exactly this kind of attitude that results in things like the Challenger and Columbia disasters; the engineers warn of the dangers, the paper shufflers and bean-counters don't listen....BANG! More dead people!

How many people have military stuff ups killed?

Where would you like me to start?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Zakalwe on February 22, 2017, 05:27:34 AM
Good to have a back up plan for Hubble in case JWST fails.  There is a good animation of the deployment of JWST, so many places for a failure.  I hope that all goes well.

http://www.universetoday.com/133429/dream-chaser-spacecraft-may-used-hubble-repair-mission/

That looks like vapourware to me. How would such a system get to the HST orbit? And de-orbit? Is it big enough to allow astronauts to suit up for EVA? Does it even have an airlock to allow EVAs?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Kiwi on February 22, 2017, 08:19:34 AM
How many people have military stuff ups killed?

For a start, just one example: 2,721 Kiwis killed and 4,752 wounded at Gallipoli between 25 April and 19 December 1915* in a monumental stuff-up by the British, who kindly saved their own troops and put the colonials in the front line. Then there were all the Australian casualties from the ANZACs... But we're wandering off topic, so this should go to a new thread.

* Two Hundred Years of New Zealand History, A W Reed, Reed Trust, Wellington, 1979, pages 207-208.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Glom on February 22, 2017, 09:17:30 AM
I think troops from the metropole did plenty of dying elsewhere.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Dalhousie on March 28, 2017, 06:13:53 PM
How many people have military stuff ups killed?

For a start, just one example: 2,721 Kiwis killed and 4,752 wounded at Gallipoli between 25 April and 19 December 1915* in a monumental stuff-up by the British, who kindly saved their own troops and put the colonials in the front line. Then there were all the Australian casualties from the ANZACs... But we're wandering off topic, so this should go to a new thread.

* Two Hundred Years of New Zealand History, A W Reed, Reed Trust, Wellington, 1979, pages 207-208.

Casualties from the UK at Gallipoli amounted to 73,485 so your opinion is not borne out by a moment's research. 
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: sts60 on March 29, 2017, 01:00:07 AM
Took this picture today....  JWST at Goddard, with vibration and acoustic testing completed, prior to departing for JSC.  Next up, thermal/vac testing at JSC's Chamber A, in which the Apollo CSM stack was tested.

(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/sts060/misc/IMG_7827.jpg)
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Kiwi on March 29, 2017, 09:23:09 AM
Casualties from the UK at Gallipoli amounted to 73,485 so your opinion is not borne out by a moment's research.

Fair enough. But small countries often think the following types of figures are more important. I'll use the third kind of lies, statistics, :) but was last taught maths in 1964 so could be a little rusty.

Gallipoli casualties divided by 1914 population
UK – 73,485 / 46,000,000 = 0.0015975
AU – 28,150 /   4,948,990 = 0.0056880
NZ –   7,991 /   1,158,436 = 0.0068981

56880 / 15975 = 3.56
68981 / 15975 = 4.31

Therefore, on a population basis Australia had three times and NZ had four times the casualties of the UK.

Figures from these web pages:--
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/media/interactive/gallipoli-casualties-country
https://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/british-empire-facts-and-stats

We do the same with medals at the Olympics and often come up shining.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Kiwi on March 29, 2017, 09:43:16 AM
Took this picture today....

Some people have all the luck! Does that mean you'll be changing your username to
STS60-JWST?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on March 29, 2017, 09:46:20 PM
Took this picture today....  JWST at Goddard, with vibration and acoustic testing completed, prior to departing for JSC.  Next up, thermal/vac testing at JSC's Chamber A, in which the Apollo CSM stack was tested.

(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/sts060/misc/IMG_7827.jpg)

Nice job to get to see these items up close an personal.  Here's hoping all the tests work out an JWST has no issues.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on January 16, 2018, 11:28:48 AM
JWST has passed the cryogenic tests

https://jwst.nasa.gov/recentaccomplish.html

Still looking for launch in 2019.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on March 29, 2018, 08:31:41 AM
And now the launch slips again.

https://spacepolicyonline.com/news/jwst-slips-another-year-to-2020-could-breach-8-billion-cost-cap/
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on July 03, 2018, 07:42:44 AM
And the launch slips again.
https://www.universetoday.com/139549/good-news-james-webb-is-still-a-go-bad-news-launching-in-2021/
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: molesworth on July 03, 2018, 02:15:42 PM
And the launch slips again.
https://www.universetoday.com/139549/good-news-james-webb-is-still-a-go-bad-news-launching-in-2021/
Well, someone's calculated the actual launch date :
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/jwst_delays.png)
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on July 04, 2018, 10:26:01 AM
And the launch slips again.
https://www.universetoday.com/139549/good-news-james-webb-is-still-a-go-bad-news-launching-in-2021/
Well, someone's calculated the actual launch date :
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/jwst_delays.png)

At the rate of accomplishments that may be more accurate.  We shall see.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: smartcooky on July 06, 2018, 01:02:23 AM
I, for one, would prefer they do it all properly and not take things for granted or skip over any testing, and if that means delays, then so be it. We have all seen what could happen if they slip up, and for this one, they will get no second chances. There won't be any repair missions to Earth-Sun L2.

NOTE: For anyone who doesn't understand what I'm talking about here, Google the phrase "Perkin Elmer Hubble Mirror"!!
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on June 01, 2019, 08:47:27 AM
Some "final" thermal testing complete.

https://www.universetoday.com/142389/phew-james-webb-passes-its-final-thermal-vacuum-test-still-on-track-for-2021/
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: apollo16uvc on June 01, 2019, 06:58:44 PM
If it fails there wont be any telescope of this scale in 50 years.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on August 29, 2019, 01:38:03 PM
It is assembled for the first time.
https://www.space.com/nasa-james-webb-space-telescope-complete.html?utm_source=sdc-newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20190829-sdc

Yah!
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on October 23, 2019, 03:03:52 PM
The sun shield deployed successfully.
https://www.universetoday.com/143804/james-webb-tests-its-sun-shield-so-far-so-good/
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: jfb on January 30, 2020, 11:57:02 AM
Planned March 2021 launch date is likely to slip to July:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/01/report-webb-telescope-has-just-a-12-percent-chance-of-making-launch-date/

Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on January 30, 2020, 12:10:51 PM
Planned March 2021 launch date is likely to slip to July:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/01/report-webb-telescope-has-just-a-12-percent-chance-of-making-launch-date/

If that!
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: smartcooky on January 30, 2020, 01:58:03 PM
I'd rather see them testing vigorously and thoroughly than succumbing to time pressure, skipping tests and ending up "doing a Hubble". This beast will be at L2.... for all intents and purposes, unreachable if the slightest thing goes wrong. There will be no JWST Repair Missions if that happens.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on January 30, 2020, 02:10:51 PM
I'd rather see them testing vigorously and thoroughly than succumbing to time pressure, skipping tests and ending up "doing a Hubble". This beast will be at L2.... for all intents and purposes, unreachable if the slightest thing goes wrong. There will be no JWST Repair Missions if that happens.

That's why I started the thread, my concerns for doing this right, they only have one chance.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on May 15, 2020, 03:18:00 PM
James Webb is Fully Stowed Into its Launch Configuration.

https://www.universetoday.com/146091/james-webb-is-fully-stowed-into-its-launch-configuration/

Scheduled liftoff: March 30th, 2021, (or maybe July 2021.)
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Peter B on May 15, 2020, 10:05:33 PM
James Webb is Fully Stowed Into its Launch Configuration.

https://www.universetoday.com/146091/james-webb-is-fully-stowed-into-its-launch-configuration/

Scheduled liftoff: March 30th, 2021, (or maybe July 2021.)

Good luck to it. I hope it doesn't experience any Galileo-style problems due to the delays in launching it.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on June 10, 2020, 11:38:01 AM
James Webb is Fully Stowed Into its Launch Configuration.

https://www.universetoday.com/146091/james-webb-is-fully-stowed-into-its-launch-configuration/

Scheduled liftoff: March 30th, 2021, (or maybe July 2021.)

Good luck to it. I hope it doesn't experience any Galileo-style problems due to the delays in launching it.

Well
Quote
To test the James Webb Space Telescope’s readiness for its journey in space, technicians successfully commanded it to deploy and extend a critical part of the observatory known as the Deployable Tower Assembly.

The primary purpose of the deployable tower is to create a large gap between the upper part of the observatory that houses its iconic gold mirrors and scientific instruments, and the lower section known as the spacecraft bus which holds its comparatively warm electronics and propulsion systems. By creating a space between the two, it allows for Webb’s active and passive cooling systems to bring its mirrors and sensors down to staggeringly cold temperatures required to perform optimal science.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2020/tower-extension-test-a-success-for-nasa-s-james-webb-space-telescope

Looks like they read your mind, I also hope it doesn't experience any issues with this complicated procedure.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on June 11, 2020, 08:27:52 AM
Planned March 2021 launch date is likely to slip to July:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/01/report-webb-telescope-has-just-a-12-percent-chance-of-making-launch-date/



And just after NASA announces,
Quote
Despite initial comments by NASA officials that work would be suspended entirely on the telescope, activities did continue there, including a test announced by NASA June 9 of its Deployable Tower Assembly that separates the mirror from the spacecraft bus.

the agency confirmed the Mar 21 launch date is a no go.

https://spacenews.com/nasa-confirms-jwst-will-miss-march-2021-launch-date/

Looks like the July is a better bet, but I'm not that hopeful since they didn't even list a target date.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on June 15, 2020, 03:37:52 PM
Here is a comprehensive update by Fraser Cain.
https://www.universetoday.com/146506/well-it-looks-like-james-webb-is-getting-delayed-again-but-it-should-still-launch-in-2021/

Quote
“I’m very optimistic about this thing getting off the launch pad in 2021.”
Thomas Zurbuchen, NASA Associate Administrator for Science.

I'm hoping everything comes together.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on July 21, 2020, 04:00:26 PM
Comprehensive test of the satellite, still aiming for Oct 2121 launch.
https://www.universetoday.com/147073/james-webb-completes-a-comprehensive-systems-test-for-the-first-time/
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: ajv on July 21, 2020, 07:52:51 PM
... still aiming for Oct 2121 launch.

Yeah, probably.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on July 26, 2020, 09:50:37 AM
Actually I made a fat finger entry on the launch date it should have been Oct. 2021.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: apollo16uvc on July 26, 2020, 02:18:06 PM
If this thing fails there won't be a budget for anything comparable for the foreseeable 50 years.

Much like how many won't see anything comparable to the Pioneer or Voyager probes in their lifetime. (Partially due to a shortage on the radioactive material with a long enough lifespan.)
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on August 31, 2020, 03:42:39 PM
The engineers put the spacecraft through on ground tests.
https://www.universetoday.com/147597/james-webb-is-working-perfectly-on-the-ground-next-trick-doing-it-from-space/

Hopefully still looking to Mar 2021.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on December 19, 2020, 10:16:07 AM
One final successful ground test.  https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2020/webb-sunshield-successfully-unfolds-and-tensions-in-final-tests/

Nothing on the launch date so I'll stay with Mar 2021.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: molesworth on December 19, 2020, 11:23:05 AM
One final successful ground test.  https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2020/webb-sunshield-successfully-unfolds-and-tensions-in-final-tests/

Nothing on the launch date so I'll stay with Mar 2021.
Fingers crossed!  I've been watching and waiting for this mission for a long time.  (It also has some of my company's tech, and a Scottish-built instrument on board  8) )
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: raven on December 19, 2020, 11:36:23 AM
Given we can't give James Webb glasses like we could Hubble, I don't blame them for wanting to be extra super, duper careful with making sure this goes well, especially with how much novel technology is at play here. That said, I definitely want to see  it fly before the next US presidential election.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on December 19, 2020, 11:43:29 AM
One final successful ground test.  https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2020/webb-sunshield-successfully-unfolds-and-tensions-in-final-tests/

Nothing on the launch date so I'll stay with Mar 2021.
Fingers crossed!  I've been watching and waiting for this mission for a long time.  (It also has some of my company's tech, and a Scottish-built instrument on board  8) )

What is the Scottish-built instrument?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: molesworth on December 19, 2020, 07:01:25 PM
What is the Scottish-built instrument?

It's the "Mid InfraRed Instrument" or MIRI, which has been built and tested at the UK Astronomy Technology Centre at the University of Edinburgh :

https://www.technologysi.stfc.ac.uk/Pages/MIRI.aspx

I got a look at it during development a few years back during a tour of the facility as part of a conference at the Royal Observatory Edinburgh.  It promises to deliver some very high quality results.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on February 19, 2021, 11:00:48 AM
I just saw this this morning.  Another delay with scheduled launch 31/10/2021.

https://knpr.org/npr/2020-07/nasa-pushes-back-launch-date-webb-space-telescope-citing-covid-19?gclid=Cj0KCQiA4L2BBhCvARIsAO0SBdY4myIgNVGugvh4htu4HgxYggUY0ZGdNtU4fRibiYm6XAOY_PMy7xAaArwJEALw_wcB

Uggggg
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: apollo16uvc on February 21, 2021, 03:45:50 PM
At this point I am afraid that materials are ageing that were never meant to be in earth atmosphere for so long.

What about the plating on the mirrors? the filters, the optical system, the sensors.


If this fails to properly deploy we won't have anything of this scale for the next 50 years.


Do you think that having several smaller space telescopes in sync will be the future for large aperture space telescopes, instead of building a single massive one?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: raven on February 21, 2021, 11:56:59 PM
Yeah, I was thinking earlier we might have a Galileo high gain antenna situation on our hands, only it's the whole bloody mirror and/or the sun shield. Damn, I really hope not;  not only would that would be absolute mud in NASA's eye, I really want this beauty to work. Being able to fold up mirrors is going to be a boon for future space telescopes.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on May 12, 2021, 09:46:57 AM
The scope unfolded for the last(?) time prior to shipment and launch now scheduled for 31 Oct (?).  We'll see if that date holds.

https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/NASAs_giant_Webb_telescope_succeeds_in_key_pre-launch_test_999.html

Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on May 14, 2021, 04:00:28 PM
Covers removed and ready to start the testing prior to launch in 018.  The one aspect that disappoints me is the launch by ESA.
http://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2016/james-webb-space-telescopes-golden-mirror-unveiled

This was one of my concerns, and now this.
https://www.universetoday.com/151191/concerns-about-james-webbs-ariane-5-rocket-might-push-the-launch-back/
Quote
As we reported yesterday, the usually reliable Ariane 5 has experienced problems on two previous launches where unexpected vehicle accelerations occurred when the fairing separated from the rocket. The fairing is the nose cone used to protect a spacecraft payload during launch and acceleration through Earth’s atmosphere.

The Ariane 5 has been grounded for several months while the European Space Agency and Arianespace investigate the issue. In both anomalies, the payloads were successfully placed in orbit, however. There are two Ariane launches on the manifest before the JWST launch, and those launches are now expected no earlier than June and August 2021, respectively.

My misgivings are resurfacing again.

I do hope this happens without further delay and has no issues.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: cjameshuff on May 15, 2021, 10:37:58 AM
At this point I am afraid that materials are ageing that were never meant to be in earth atmosphere for so long.

What about the plating on the mirrors? the filters, the optical system, the sensors.


If this fails to properly deploy we won't have anything of this scale for the next 50 years.


Do you think that having several smaller space telescopes in sync will be the future for large aperture space telescopes, instead of building a single massive one?

For radio it might be possible (though costly), but you can't feasibly combine multiple smaller orbital telescopes for optical observations. You'd need them to be positioned within a fraction of a wavelength, which at optical wavelengths means within tens of nanometers, and you need to somehow collect the optical signals from all the nodes together in one place. This isn't something that can be done electronically, optical sensors don't preserve the needed information. A modular telescope assembled in orbit would be more feasible, but at that point you may as well just make a big segmented mirror.

The problem with JWST isn't that it's big, the problem (apart from its basic management issues) is that it can't reasonably fit in its launch vehicle. The same telescope built for a larger vehicle would be far cheaper and less delicate, because it wouldn't have to be optimized down to razor-thin margins. If they'd done a half-sized vehicle to prove out the new technologies, they would have been able to use the experience to plan the mass and volume budgets better for the full-scale JWST and we'd now be looking at years of data from something slightly less ambitious and far less expensive and delayed.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: smartcooky on May 17, 2021, 06:45:10 AM
For radio it might be possible (though costly), but you can't feasibly combine multiple smaller orbital telescopes for optical observations. You'd need them to be positioned within a fraction of a wavelength, which at optical wavelengths means within tens of nanometers, and you need to somehow collect the optical signals from all the nodes together in one place. This isn't something that can be done electronically, optical sensors don't preserve the needed information. A modular telescope assembled in orbit would be more feasible, but at that point you may as well just make a big segmented mirror

Why would it not be feasible to do this electronically? Ultimately, the optical signals from telescopes like Hubble and Chandra are converted into digital signals for transmission to earth, so why couldn't each element convert the signals and send them back to earth for later processing

These guys seem to think its possible...

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms7852

"Highest resolution imaging in astronomy is achieved by interferometry, connecting telescopes over increasingly longer distances and at successively shorter wavelengths. Here, we present the first diffraction-limited images in visual light, produced by an array of independent optical telescopes, connected electronically only, with no optical links between them." 

Now, I have not read the whole paper, and I do not claim or pretend to understand all of it, but the principle seems sound to me.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: cjameshuff on May 17, 2021, 04:22:54 PM
For radio it might be possible (though costly), but you can't feasibly combine multiple smaller orbital telescopes for optical observations. You'd need them to be positioned within a fraction of a wavelength, which at optical wavelengths means within tens of nanometers, and you need to somehow collect the optical signals from all the nodes together in one place. This isn't something that can be done electronically, optical sensors don't preserve the needed information. A modular telescope assembled in orbit would be more feasible, but at that point you may as well just make a big segmented mirror

Why would it not be feasible to do this electronically? Ultimately, the optical signals from telescopes like Hubble and Chandra are converted into digital signals for transmission to earth, so why couldn't each element convert the signals and send them back to earth for later processing

These guys seem to think its possible...

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms7852

"Highest resolution imaging in astronomy is achieved by interferometry, connecting telescopes over increasingly longer distances and at successively shorter wavelengths. Here, we present the first diffraction-limited images in visual light, produced by an array of independent optical telescopes, connected electronically only, with no optical links between them." 

Now, I have not read the whole paper, and I do not claim or pretend to understand all of it, but the principle seems sound to me.

Hubble and Chandra do not "convert the optical signal to a digital form", they take measurements of integrated intensity over a period of time. The original optical signal is completely lost. Current sensor technologies just can't capture that information past a couple terahertz.

The process described in the paper, as far as I understand it, requires a completely different approach involving very precisely timed photon detections. It is apparently only physically possible with small telescopes, which limits it to very hot and bright sources. It is also poorly suited to imaging, note that their reconstructions involved knowledge of the target being reconstructed. It seems mainly useful for measuring the sizes of particularly hot and nearby stars, when the number of stars is known, and when they're separated enough that you can gather the data needed without them moving too much during the observations.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on June 03, 2021, 10:51:12 AM
Well we have a delay again.

https://spacenews.com/jwst-launch-slips-to-november/

Maybe this year.  I do hope ESA gets the faring issue solved, this must be making NASA nervous.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: apollo16uvc on July 13, 2021, 04:31:28 PM
I don't think astronomy could recover if the JWST failed. We likely won't see a space telescope of that scale and expanse for a generation of astronomers. Its failure could literally set back research by decades.

Imagine if repairs to the Hubble weren't possible... and how profoundly set-back the field would be would we not have been able to use that telescope for decades. If the Hubble failed, nothing on its scale would have been attempted since and astronomy would have been nothing like we know it as today.


But if it succeeds, it could change astronomy forever and take photos that define this century.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: molesworth on September 08, 2021, 12:27:04 PM
There's now an "official launch date" of 18th December, although whether it'll slip again remains to be seen.

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-readies-james-webb-space-telescope-for-december-launch

Quote
NASA plans to launch the James Webb Space Telescope into orbit Dec. 18, 2021, to serve as the premier deep space observatory for the next decade.

The agency set the new target launch date in coordination with Arianespace after Webb recently and successfully completed its rigorous testing regimen – a major turning point for the mission. The new date also follows Arianespace successfully launching an Ariane 5 rocket in late July and scheduling a launch that will precede Webb. The July launch was the first for an Ariane 5 since August 2020.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on September 08, 2021, 01:25:12 PM
Yes I read where it was readied for shipment via the sea.  I'm still hoping all will go well.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: raven on September 10, 2021, 08:10:16 PM
It would be an awesome Christmas present if it goes up successfully then.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on September 10, 2021, 11:06:35 PM
It would be an awesome Christmas present if it goes up successfully then.

And the deployment goes successfully.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: raven on September 11, 2021, 07:17:56 PM
It would be an awesome Christmas present if it goes up successfully then.

And the deployment goes successfully.
Indeed so. Hopefully they learned the lessons from Galileo and made extra care to prevent vacuum welding.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on September 12, 2021, 10:09:52 PM
It would be an awesome Christmas present if it goes up successfully then.

And the deployment goes successfully.
Indeed so. Hopefully they learned the lessons from Galileo and made extra care to prevent vacuum welding.

Umm what is vacuum welding?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: raven on September 13, 2021, 01:07:52 AM
It would be an awesome Christmas present if it goes up successfully then.

And the deployment goes successfully.
Indeed so. Hopefully they learned the lessons from Galileo and made extra care to prevent vacuum welding.

Umm what is vacuum welding?
It's when materials bond together spontaneously in a vacuum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_cementing). It is believed to be what affected the Galileo high-gain antenna, after it lost its lubrication in the long storage between its planned launch date and the actual launch date, preventing it from deploying.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on September 13, 2021, 11:11:33 AM
It would be an awesome Christmas present if it goes up successfully then.

And the deployment goes successfully.
Indeed so. Hopefully they learned the lessons from Galileo and made extra care to prevent vacuum welding.

Umm what is vacuum welding?
It's when materials bond together spontaneously in a vacuum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_cementing). It is believed to be what affected the Galileo high-gain antenna, after it lost its lubrication in the long storage between its planned launch date and the actual launch date, preventing it from deploying.

This is a first for me, but it does sound plausible.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on October 11, 2021, 12:28:49 PM
Fraser has an interesting link.

https://www.universetoday.com/152863/jwsts-30-days-of-terror/

Quote
But even now, as the telescope might be secretly traveling by cargo ship to the European Space Agency (ESA) launch site in French Guiana

This action resembles my initial apprehension with launching via ESA.  Why would NASA ship in secret unless they perceive a threat and what security at the launch site is provided by ESA?  ESA had some earlier issues with the launch vehicle that seems to be mitigated, hopefully.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Peter B on October 11, 2021, 07:17:12 PM
Fraser has an interesting link.

https://www.universetoday.com/152863/jwsts-30-days-of-terror/

Quote
But even now, as the telescope might be secretly traveling by cargo ship to the European Space Agency (ESA) launch site in French Guiana

This action resembles my initial apprehension with launching via ESA.  Why would NASA ship in secret unless they perceive a threat and what security at the launch site is provided by ESA?  ESA had some earlier issues with the launch vehicle that seems to be mitigated, hopefully.

Do they perceive a threat? Not necessarily, as far as I can see. I wonder if this is simply the best way to manage risks they can't control in the same way they could control risks within the USA.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on October 11, 2021, 11:03:09 PM
Fraser has an interesting link.

https://www.universetoday.com/152863/jwsts-30-days-of-terror/

Quote
But even now, as the telescope might be secretly traveling by cargo ship to the European Space Agency (ESA) launch site in French Guiana

This action resembles my initial apprehension with launching via ESA.  Why would NASA ship in secret unless they perceive a threat and what security at the launch site is provided by ESA?  ESA had some earlier issues with the launch vehicle that seems to be mitigated, hopefully.

Do they perceive a threat? Not necessarily, as far as I can see. I wonder if this is simply the best way to manage risks they can't control in the same way they could control risks within the USA.
Interesting but shipping secretly?  Everyone knows it has to travel through the Panama Canal then onto Guiana.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: jfb on October 12, 2021, 01:47:59 PM
Fraser has an interesting link.

https://www.universetoday.com/152863/jwsts-30-days-of-terror/

Quote
But even now, as the telescope might be secretly traveling by cargo ship to the European Space Agency (ESA) launch site in French Guiana

This action resembles my initial apprehension with launching via ESA.  Why would NASA ship in secret unless they perceive a threat and what security at the launch site is provided by ESA?  ESA had some earlier issues with the launch vehicle that seems to be mitigated, hopefully.

Do they perceive a threat? Not necessarily, as far as I can see. I wonder if this is simply the best way to manage risks they can't control in the same way they could control risks within the USA.
Interesting but shipping secretly?  Everyone knows it has to travel through the Panama Canal then onto Guiana.

Yeah, but they don't know which boat. 
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on October 12, 2021, 01:53:02 PM
Fraser has an interesting link.

https://www.universetoday.com/152863/jwsts-30-days-of-terror/

Quote
But even now, as the telescope might be secretly traveling by cargo ship to the European Space Agency (ESA) launch site in French Guiana

This action resembles my initial apprehension with launching via ESA.  Why would NASA ship in secret unless they perceive a threat and what security at the launch site is provided by ESA?  ESA had some earlier issues with the launch vehicle that seems to be mitigated, hopefully.

Do they perceive a threat? Not necessarily, as far as I can see. I wonder if this is simply the best way to manage risks they can't control in the same way they could control risks within the USA.
Interesting but shipping secretly?  Everyone knows it has to travel through the Panama Canal then onto Guiana.

Yeah, but they don't know which boat.
Very true, hence the secrecy because NASA seems to be concerned with the security o the telescope in my mind.  We can bounce this off each other as it seems you have a different mindset than I.
I'm hoping for the best outcome.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: jfb on October 12, 2021, 02:30:32 PM
Fraser has an interesting link.

https://www.universetoday.com/152863/jwsts-30-days-of-terror/

Quote
But even now, as the telescope might be secretly traveling by cargo ship to the European Space Agency (ESA) launch site in French Guiana

This action resembles my initial apprehension with launching via ESA.  Why would NASA ship in secret unless they perceive a threat and what security at the launch site is provided by ESA?  ESA had some earlier issues with the launch vehicle that seems to be mitigated, hopefully.

Do they perceive a threat? Not necessarily, as far as I can see. I wonder if this is simply the best way to manage risks they can't control in the same way they could control risks within the USA.
Interesting but shipping secretly?  Everyone knows it has to travel through the Panama Canal then onto Guiana.

Yeah, but they don't know which boat.
Very true, hence the secrecy because NASA seems to be concerned with the security o the telescope in my mind.  We can bounce this off each other as it seems you have a different mindset than I.
I'm hoping for the best outcome.

As long as it took and as much as it cost to build I'm not going to begrudge a little (okay, maybe more than a little) paranoia. There's too much money and too many careers wrapped up in this project to have it be damaged or lost in transit.  I seriously doubt the JWST is on anyone's radar as a target, but on the other hand I wouldn't want to be the one in front of a Congressional committee explaining why it got blowed up by some dipshit with an RPG. 

I would much rather it go up on a domestic launcher, but I don't get to make those calls (and this arrangement was made well before Falcon Heavy was flying). 
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on October 12, 2021, 07:54:43 PM
It looks like the trip on ship has ended.
https://www.space.com/nasa-james-webb-space-telescope-arrives-french-guiana?utm_source=notification
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on October 13, 2021, 11:18:45 AM
And the travel pack with telescope has arrived at the launch port.
https://www.universetoday.com/152908/webb-has-arrived-safely-at-the-launch-site/
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: molesworth on November 23, 2021, 05:02:51 AM
I'm starting to think this mission is cursed...

Quote
The launch readiness date for the James Webb Space Telescope is moving to no earlier than Dec. 22 to allow for additional testing of the observatory, following a recent incident that occurred during Webb’s launch preparations.

The incident occurred during operations at the satellite preparation facility in Kourou, French Guiana, performed under Arianespace overall responsibility. Technicians were preparing to attach Webb to the launch vehicle adapter, which is used to integrate the observatory with the upper stage of the Ariane 5 rocket. A sudden, unplanned release of a clamp band – which secures Webb to the launch vehicle adapter – caused a vibration throughout the observatory.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/webb/2021/11/22/nasa-provides-update-on-webb-telescope-launch/
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on November 23, 2021, 02:13:26 PM
And the travel pack with telescope has arrived at the launch port.
https://www.universetoday.com/152908/webb-has-arrived-safely-at-the-launch-site/

The Launch has been delayed by an accident.  The NASA technicians down there need to inspect everything and to check if the loading equipment is up to the task.
New launch date NET 22 Dec 21
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Peter B on November 23, 2021, 03:45:12 PM
I'm starting to think this mission is cursed...

Quote
The launch readiness date for the James Webb Space Telescope is moving to no earlier than Dec. 22 to allow for additional testing of the observatory, following a recent incident that occurred during Webb’s launch preparations.

The incident occurred during operations at the satellite preparation facility in Kourou, French Guiana, performed under Arianespace overall responsibility. Technicians were preparing to attach Webb to the launch vehicle adapter, which is used to integrate the observatory with the upper stage of the Ariane 5 rocket. A sudden, unplanned release of a clamp band – which secures Webb to the launch vehicle adapter – caused a vibration throughout the observatory.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/webb/2021/11/22/nasa-provides-update-on-webb-telescope-launch/

Per ardua ad astra?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Glom on November 24, 2021, 07:14:00 PM
I'm starting to think this mission is cursed...

Quote
The launch readiness date for the James Webb Space Telescope is moving to no earlier than Dec. 22 to allow for additional testing of the observatory, following a recent incident that occurred during Webb’s launch preparations.

The incident occurred during operations at the satellite preparation facility in Kourou, French Guiana, performed under Arianespace overall responsibility. Technicians were preparing to attach Webb to the launch vehicle adapter, which is used to integrate the observatory with the upper stage of the Ariane 5 rocket. A sudden, unplanned release of a clamp band – which secures Webb to the launch vehicle adapter – caused a vibration throughout the observatory.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/webb/2021/11/22/nasa-provides-update-on-webb-telescope-launch/


Isn't that what they said about Hubble?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on November 24, 2021, 10:19:18 PM
I'm starting to think this mission is cursed...

Quote
The launch readiness date for the James Webb Space Telescope is moving to no earlier than Dec. 22 to allow for additional testing of the observatory, following a recent incident that occurred during Webb’s launch preparations.

The incident occurred during operations at the satellite preparation facility in Kourou, French Guiana, performed under Arianespace overall responsibility. Technicians were preparing to attach Webb to the launch vehicle adapter, which is used to integrate the observatory with the upper stage of the Ariane 5 rocket. A sudden, unplanned release of a clamp band – which secures Webb to the launch vehicle adapter – caused a vibration throughout the observatory.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/webb/2021/11/22/nasa-provides-update-on-webb-telescope-launch/


Isn't that what they said about Hubble?

At least Hubble was fixable.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Peter B on November 26, 2021, 07:28:53 PM
I'm starting to think this mission is cursed...

Quote
The launch readiness date for the James Webb Space Telescope is moving to no earlier than Dec. 22 to allow for additional testing of the observatory, following a recent incident that occurred during Webb’s launch preparations.

The incident occurred during operations at the satellite preparation facility in Kourou, French Guiana, performed under Arianespace overall responsibility. Technicians were preparing to attach Webb to the launch vehicle adapter, which is used to integrate the observatory with the upper stage of the Ariane 5 rocket. A sudden, unplanned release of a clamp band – which secures Webb to the launch vehicle adapter – caused a vibration throughout the observatory.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/webb/2021/11/22/nasa-provides-update-on-webb-telescope-launch/


Isn't that what they said about Hubble?

At least Hubble was fixable.

If it turns out to not be fit for its original mission it could be expended in a DART 2 mission?  ;)
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Bryanpoprobson on December 14, 2021, 04:49:21 PM
James Webb has been placed on its launch rocket.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-59632757
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on December 14, 2021, 04:57:09 PM
James Webb has been placed on its launch rocket.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-59632757

Now if the rocket works and the satellite  opens correctly.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on December 14, 2021, 08:31:20 PM
Iheard there is another delay, communication between the rocket and control.  Dec24 NET.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on December 15, 2021, 10:41:51 PM
An update to the communication SNAFU.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/15/world/james-webb-space-telescope-launch-delay-scn/index.html

Quote
Teams are working on "a communication issue between the observatory and the launch vehicle system," NASA shared in an online post. The agency will provide an update about the telescope on Friday.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: apollo16uvc on December 21, 2021, 04:43:29 PM
Telescope is inside rocket fairing and the rocket is currently being moved to the launch platform.

https://twitter.com/DutchSpace/status/1473402546081484806/photo/2

Launch date moved to 25 December:
https://twitter.com/Arianespace/status/1473406135185154053
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: apollo16uvc on December 23, 2021, 01:35:22 PM
https://twitter.com/NASAWebb/status/1474083585216892939

Its happening ITS HAPPENING
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Jeff Raven on December 23, 2021, 10:16:37 PM
https://twitter.com/NASAWebb/status/1474083585216892939

Its happening ITS HAPPENING

I'm a cynic, and I freely admit it, but I'll believe it when I actually see it go up. Until then, it's almost like vaporware.

And what the heck do they mean that the communication problem between the launch vehicle and the observatory is "mostly resolved?" They can talk to one another 1/2 the time? Eighty percent of the time?  Nine out of every ten words go through? 
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: raven on December 24, 2021, 01:27:45 AM
If it goes up and works out, it definitely will make a heck of a Christmas present.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: molesworth on December 24, 2021, 11:25:05 AM
Launch date moved to 25 December:
https://twitter.com/Arianespace/status/1473406135185154053
Cursed I tells ye... Cursed...
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Peter B on December 24, 2021, 08:30:16 PM
Launch date moved to 25 December:
https://twitter.com/Arianespace/status/1473406135185154053
Cursed I tells ye... Cursed...

But being the rational people we are, it's not like we're superstitious or anything...!

ETA: Now, where did I put that piece of wood?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Jeff Raven on December 24, 2021, 11:32:41 PM
If it goes up and works out, it definitely will make a heck of a Christmas present.

Agreed.  Let's hope tomorrow morning's launch is the first of many, many successful steps leading up to it starting its mission.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: smartcooky on December 25, 2021, 06:47:59 AM
Its 12:47 am in NZ - launch is in 33 minutes..... and I am starting to get nervous!!
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: raven on December 25, 2021, 07:33:58 AM
Well, she's up and away on the second stage. So many more steps to go, but here we are at last, at long last. My hopes to all and Godspeed.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: smartcooky on December 25, 2021, 08:00:41 AM
What an odd sequence of orbital maneuvers..... launch to 220 km, then drop down to about 180 km, then turn upwards and ramp the velocity up to about 10km/s.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: apollo16uvc on December 25, 2021, 09:31:22 AM
The Europeans did their job right, obviously as expected with an almost perfect track record for the respective rocket.
There are some European instruments onboard too, lets hope to perform as specified.

Now the NASA/American part of the sequence needs to go right: Getting the spacecraft where it needs to be and performing the origami sequence.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: apollo16uvc on December 25, 2021, 10:03:04 AM
DSN is communicating with webb:

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/694894769167663228/924315935660204133/image0.jpg)
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: molesworth on December 25, 2021, 12:58:33 PM
Phew!  <wipes brow>

Fingers crossed it all goes well over the next few weeks, and we get some interesting data soon.  As has often been said, it's not the things we expect to see that will be the most interesting, it'll be the things we had no idea about...
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on December 25, 2021, 01:58:18 PM
It's off and running.  I watched the launch live until it went through the clouds.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: smartcooky on December 25, 2021, 05:59:27 PM
Here is a cool website.

https://jwst.nasa.gov/content/webbLaunch/whereIsWebb.html

It gives running updates on its timeline to L2 showing velocity, percentage of journey completed distance traveled etc

I have it as a pinned tab on my browser.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Peter B on December 25, 2021, 09:30:24 PM
What an odd sequence of orbital maneuvers..... launch to 220 km, then drop down to about 180 km, then turn upwards and ramp the velocity up to about 10km/s.

The dive from 220km back down to 180km - is that an example of the Oberth Effect?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on December 25, 2021, 10:56:23 PM
Here is a cool websiNeat information, thanks

https://jwst.nasa.gov/content/webbLaunch/whereIsWebb.html

It gives running updates on its timeline to L2 showing velocity, percentage of journey completed distance traveled etc

I have it as a pinned tab on my browser.
Neat information,  thanks
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: smartcooky on December 26, 2021, 12:06:13 AM
What an odd sequence of orbital maneuvers..... launch to 220 km, then drop down to about 180 km, then turn upwards and ramp the velocity up to about 10km/s.

The dive from 220km back down to 180km - is that an example of the Oberth Effect?

I don't know. I think it may have been intentional. In the commentary, they were talking about performing "the sawtooth maneuver". They also talked about something to do with avoiding direct sunlight on parts of the telescope.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Bryanpoprobson on December 26, 2021, 03:52:18 PM
*****BREAKING NEWS*******

First image received from the JWST.

(https://i.imgur.com/QUE5ruZ.jpg)

😂🤣 I’m sorry I couldn’t resist.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: smartcooky on December 27, 2021, 01:51:14 AM
*****BREAKING NEWS*******

First image received from the JWST.

(https://i.imgur.com/QUE5ruZ.jpg)

😂🤣 I’m sorry I couldn’t resist.

Priceless!!
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on December 27, 2021, 09:30:00 AM
The short videos of the antenna deployment was rather neat, now for the sunshade tomorrow.  That one looks mor complicated with more moving parts.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: smartcooky on December 28, 2021, 08:30:37 PM
The forward and aft Unitized Pallet Structures for the sun shield have been successfully deployed.

Next is the tower assembly deployment tomorrow (Day 4) and the momentum flap the next day (Day 5).

Later on Day 5 will be the first nail-biter, the release of the sun shield cover. If that doesn't happen 100% correctly, game over!
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on December 28, 2021, 08:43:51 PM
The forward and aft Unitized Pallet Structures for the sun shield have been successfully deployed.

Next is the tower assembly deployment tomorrow (Day 4) and the momentum flap the next day (Day 5).

Later on Day 5 will be the first nail-biter, the release of the sun shield cover. If that doesn't happen 100% correctly, game over!
I wished thy would have released a video, but I guess cameras were in the wrong position.  The sun shield will be a nail biter for sure.  Here's to hoping for a perfect deployment of the sun shield.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on December 29, 2021, 12:52:00 PM
I know Jay has posted that carrying heat away from electronics is an issue and the Temperatures are available now and I see an Instrument radiator temperature available.  So, does this radiator connect physically to the instrument circuits and transmit heat physically?  Is this how it's done?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Bryanpoprobson on December 29, 2021, 01:41:42 PM
Due to the precision of our launch and our first two mid-course corrections, our team has determined that Webb should have enough fuel to allow support of science operations for significantly more than a 10-year science lifetime! 💫 blogs.nasa.gov/webb/2021/12/2…
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: smartcooky on December 29, 2021, 07:11:51 PM
The Deployable Tower Assembly (the structure that holds the mirrors and the instrument housing) has now been deployed. It has been extended "up" about two metres to give clearance for the sun shield to deploy.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Zakalwe on December 30, 2021, 04:25:59 AM
I know Jay has posted that carrying heat away from electronics is an issue and the Temperatures are available now and I see an Instrument radiator temperature available.  So, does this radiator connect physically to the instrument circuits and transmit heat physically?  Is this how it's done?

https://webb.nasa.gov/content/about/innovations/cryocooler.html

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/how-cold-can-you-go-cooler-tested-for-nasa-telescope
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on December 30, 2021, 01:54:11 PM
I know Jay has posted that carrying heat away from electronics is an issue and the Temperatures are available now and I see an Instrument radiator temperature available.  So, does this radiator connect physically to the instrument circuits and transmit heat physically?  Is this how it's done?

https://webb.nasa.gov/content/about/innovations/cryocooler.html

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/how-cold-can-you-go-cooler-tested-for-nasa-telescope

Interesting.  The first part of the sun screen was accomplished.
https://blogs.nasa.gov/webb/
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Bryanpoprobson on January 01, 2022, 05:30:17 AM
Both sides of the sun shield deployed, tensioning and separation to come, this surely is the tricky part nearly over?
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Peter B on January 03, 2022, 02:07:53 AM
What an odd sequence of orbital maneuvers..... launch to 220 km, then drop down to about 180 km, then turn upwards and ramp the velocity up to about 10km/s.

The dive from 220km back down to 180km - is that an example of the Oberth Effect?

I don't know. I think it may have been intentional. In the commentary, they were talking about performing "the sawtooth maneuver". They also talked about something to do with avoiding direct sunlight on parts of the telescope.

Aha!



Video from Anton Petrov confirmed the dive was an Oberth Effect maneuver. He also said the spacecraft twisted back and forth on its vertical axis as a measure to protect against Sun heating.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on January 03, 2022, 08:52:55 PM
The first three sunshield layers have been tensioned.     The next two will be tensioned tomorrow.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on January 04, 2022, 12:04:45 PM
Listening live all five layers have been tensioned.  Now onto the mirrors deployment.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Bryanpoprobson on January 05, 2022, 12:12:15 PM
Secondary Mirror deployed successfully.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on January 05, 2022, 01:45:45 PM
Secondary Mirror deployed successfully.

Slowly but surely the +/- 300 "devices" work to completely deploy the telescope.   ;D
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: raven on January 07, 2022, 10:03:50 PM
And now one (https://blogs.nasa.gov/webb/2022/01/07/first-of-two-primary-mirror-wings-unfolds/) of two wings of the primary mirror have been unfolded. Still on tenterhooks until it's all done, but here's hoping!
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on January 08, 2022, 10:57:18 AM
My morbid thougts on this telescope have been relieved to a large part, now for the calibrating, etc.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: molesworth on January 08, 2022, 02:05:20 PM
My morbid thougts on this telescope have been relieved to a large part, now for the calibrating, etc.
Agreed!  After all the delays and setbacks I was expecting problems with the various mechanisms sticking.  It looks like we'll finally get a working telescope, and some incredible views of the universe.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: molesworth on January 24, 2022, 04:51:29 PM
JWST is now in its L2 orbit, and getting ready to start work.

James Webb telescope parked in observing position (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-60116475)
Quote
Thirty days after it was launched, the James Webb telescope has arrived at the position in space where it will observe the Universe.

The Lagrange Point 2, as it's known, is a million miles (1.5 million km) from Earth on its nightside.

Webb was finally nudged into an orbit around this location thanks to a short, five-minute thruster burn.

Controllers back on Earth will now spend the coming months tuning the telescope to get it ready for science.

Key tasks include switching on the observatory's four instruments, and also focusing its mirrors - in particular, its 6.5m-wide segmented primary reflector.

There's still a lot of adjustment and checking to do, but it won't be too long before we start to see some amazing images.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on January 24, 2022, 05:44:06 PM
JWST is now in its L2 orbit, and getting ready to start work.

James Webb telescope parked in observing position (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-60116475)
Quote
Thirty days after it was launched, the James Webb telescope has arrived at the position in space where it will observe the Universe.

The Lagrange Point 2, as it's known, is a million miles (1.5 million km) from Earth on its nightside.

Webb was finally nudged into an orbit around this location thanks to a short, five-minute thruster burn.

Controllers back on Earth will now spend the coming months tuning the telescope to get it ready for science.

Key tasks include switching on the observatory's four instruments, and also focusing its mirrors - in particular, its 6.5m-wide segmented primary reflector.

There's still a lot of adjustment and checking to do, but it won't be too long before we start to see some amazing images.
Looking better with each milestone passed.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: raven on January 24, 2022, 11:41:54 PM
The mirrors, antenna and sun shade all have deployed successfully. I wouldn't say we're home free, but this is looking more and more hopeful all the time.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: bknight on February 11, 2022, 04:39:06 PM
The first image from the telescope.
https://www.space.com/james-webb-space-telescope-first-target-star
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Peter B on June 08, 2022, 05:19:46 AM
And now JWST appears in a game:

https://roman.gsfc.nasa.gov/game.html

(Which is actually about the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope.)

My top score so far is 577...

ETA: 667...
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Jeff Raven on July 13, 2022, 07:30:12 PM
I definitely lack any expertise or training in a relevant area to critique or evaluate the images released yesterday, but they seem amazing, and I can only imagine just how much new information the raw data is going to provide.  Showing the contrast between JWST's and Hubble's images of the same areas of the sky was very smart on their part.  The average person has no idea what a lot of the technical specs and jargon mean, but when they see things side by side, it makes it much clearer. (no pun intended)
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: molesworth on July 20, 2022, 07:15:20 AM
Looks like one of the meteoroid impacts has done some serious damage to a mirror segment :

https://www.livescience.com/james-webb-space-telescope-micrometeoroid-picture
https://www.space.com/james-webb-space-telescope-micrometeoroid-damage

From the reports it sounds like it'll only have a minor effect on the quality of the images and other data, but the worry is that there seems to have been quite a few hits since deployment, and there's no way to predict the likely frequency of further impacts. Fingers crossed this one was a one-in-a-billion unlucky early hit.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Count Zero on July 21, 2022, 02:27:28 AM
Who could have guessed that an abnormal amount of space debris would collect (instead of drifting away and scattering) at the place we selected because objects orbiting there tend to stay there?

Larry Niven predicted this in his 1967 short story "Flatlander".  Beowulf Schaeffer describes an early deep space ship passing through a Lagrange point and taking "unexpected" micrometeor damage.
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: Grashtel on July 21, 2022, 11:25:00 PM
Who could have guessed that an abnormal amount of space debris would collect (instead of drifting away and scattering) at the place we selected because objects orbiting there tend to stay there?

Larry Niven predicted this in his 1967 short story "Flatlander".  Beowulf Schaeffer describes an early deep space ship passing through a Lagrange point and taking "unexpected" micrometeor damage.
The Webb is at L2, its not one of the stable points, anything there will drift away from it without active stabilisation, its useful as its stable relative to Earth and a lot further away than a normal orbit would be stable at
Title: Re: James Webb Space Telescope
Post by: cjameshuff on July 22, 2022, 09:37:26 PM
Who could have guessed that an abnormal amount of space debris would collect (instead of drifting away and scattering) at the place we selected because objects orbiting there tend to stay there?

Larry Niven predicted this in his 1967 short story "Flatlander".  Beowulf Schaeffer describes an early deep space ship passing through a Lagrange point and taking "unexpected" micrometeor damage.
The Webb is at L2, its not one of the stable points, anything there will drift away from it without active stabilisation, its useful as its stable relative to Earth and a lot further away than a normal orbit would be stable at

Right, it's L4 and L5 that tend to collect things, objects tend to just pass through L1, L2, and L3...their importance is that there are low-energy trajectories to and through them. JWST's lifetime is set by propellant required to maintain its orbit, it will wander off into solar orbit when that is exhausted. There may be an elevated amount of debris passing through that area of space, but it's not really clear how elevated, or what the velocity and size distributions are. Another reason it might have been a good idea to send some lower-cost precursor missions...