Author Topic: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch  (Read 118792 times)

Offline ka9q

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #540 on: April 05, 2019, 07:50:41 PM »
Also, btw check out the 1 minute mark of the trailer. It shows the LM being transported from production to mating. It is almost unrecognizable versus the LM we see in space. The legs are different...
You forgot to mention all those little red tags fluttering from various parts on the LM in the VAB that aren't on the lunar surface. Do you consider that a revealing "problem" too?

Offline raven

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #541 on: April 05, 2019, 10:43:16 PM »
Yes, the legs look 'different'. They were designed to unfold and lock into the landing position since they wouldn't fit in the adapter attached to the third stage of the Saturn V otherwise. Someone with an even cursory knowledge of Apollo would know that, but I am not at all surprised you didn't jr Knowing.
As a fellow Canadian, I am ashamed at your behaviour. You may try to distance yourself from the spam bot we have gotten recently, but your attempts at 'logic' are just as fallacious as there's.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #542 on: April 06, 2019, 03:24:16 AM »
Yes, the legs look 'different'. They were designed to unfold and lock into the landing position since they wouldn't fit in the adapter attached to the third stage of the Saturn V otherwise. Someone with an even cursory knowledge of Apollo would know that, but I am not at all surprised you didn't jr Knowing.
As a fellow Canadian, I am ashamed at your behaviour. You may try to distance yourself from the spam bot we have gotten recently, but your attempts at 'logic' are just as fallacious as there's.

Does  Jr find aircraft unrecognisable once they have retracted their undercarriage?  What about carrier aircraft folded for stowage?

How does he or she cope with a Buccaneer, Gannet, or Osprey?  Are they almost recognisable and therefore clearly fakes?


Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #543 on: April 06, 2019, 12:07:03 PM »
If you re-read the initial post, I don't think the Jr's concern was with the difference between the undercarriage in its stowed and extended positions.  He's talking about various temporary wrappings on the footpads and then the ultimate difference between the insulation and other surface coverings/coatings as seen during checkout and then in flight.  We know additional insulation was fitted after rollout, as well as the plume deflectors.  Jr was unaware that the SLA interior was accessible to the ground crew.  He thought once the LM was inside the SLA and integrated with the launch vehicle, the LM could not be accessed again.  Of course that's entirely mistaken.  Not only could workers get to the LM while the Saturn was on the pad, that was part of the plan all along.  It's also an an easy thing to find out -- especially if one approaches the web search with that specific question.  We've learned from his threads that he prefers his own speculation, supposition, and deduction in place of actual fact.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #544 on: April 06, 2019, 06:11:29 PM »
It'd blow his tiny mind if he learned that they installed pyros to cut holes in the SLA to provide emergency egress for the crew working in the SLA if there was a hyperbolic spill.
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #545 on: April 06, 2019, 06:30:25 PM »
"Hypergolic," but dramatic either way. [emoji16]
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #546 on: April 07, 2019, 02:38:00 AM »
"Hypergolic," but dramatic either way. [emoji16]

Autocorrect strikes again!
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline Mag40

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #547 on: April 07, 2019, 04:57:37 AM »
"Hypergolic," but dramatic either way. [emoji16]

Autocorrect strikes again!

Don't you just hat that?

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #548 on: April 07, 2019, 06:21:34 AM »
"Hypergolic," but dramatic either way. [emoji16]

Autocorrect strikes again!

Don't you just hat that?

you need a spill chucker....
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' " - Isaac Asimov

Offline ka9q

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #549 on: April 07, 2019, 07:07:29 AM »
It'd blow his tiny mind if he learned that they installed pyros to cut holes in the SLA to provide emergency egress for the crew working in the SLA if there was a hyperbolic spill.
I've been studying Apollo for years and never knew this. Learn something new every day, even things that happened a half century ago.

When were the LM and CSM fueled? I know that in the uncrewed spacecraft world propellant loading is done as late as possible. The crews who actually do the loading wear pressurized "SCAPE" suits to protect them in case of a leak, and everyone else is evacuated. Fuel and oxidizer are loaded on separate days, just in case some gets out and lingers in the area.

Once the tanks are loaded everyone treats it as a live bomb, carries a gas mask, and practices evacuation drills. Staff are constantly sniffing around with gas detectors. Somewhere I have pictures of some friends jumping into the emergency chute from the top of the Ariane V gantry in Kourou during one of those drills.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 07:13:05 AM by ka9q »

Offline Peter B

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #550 on: April 07, 2019, 07:23:52 AM »
It'd blow his tiny mind if he learned that they installed pyros to cut holes in the SLA to provide emergency egress for the crew working in the SLA if there was a hyperbolic spill.
I've been studying Apollo for years and never knew this. Learn something new every day, even things that happened a half century ago.

When were the LM and CSM fueled? I know that in the uncrewed spacecraft world propellant loading is done as late as possible. The crews who actually do the loading wear pressurized "SCAPE" suits to protect them in case of a leak, and everyone else is evacuated. Fuel and oxidizer are loaded on separate days, just in case some gets out and lingers in the area.

Once the tanks are loaded everyone treats it as a live bomb, carries a gas mask, and practices evacuation drills. Staff are constantly sniffing around with gas detectors. Somewhere I have pictures of some friends jumping into the emergency chute from the top of the Ariane V gantry in Kourou during one of those drills.

I likewise had no idea.

My question is, how was this monitored? Did they have the LM partially powered up to use its systems to detect a leak through a decrease in fuel volume or weight, or did they have sniffers of some sort, or did it rely on the crew themselves detecting a leak?

Offline ka9q

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #551 on: April 07, 2019, 07:40:58 AM »
I don't actually know, but they almost certainly used hazardous gas sniffers. Even a tiny leak could be very hazardous to people in a confined space. Consider what happened to the ASTP crew just before splashdown.

Although both propellants have strong odors (hydrazine is "fishy" and NTO is acrid) you can't safely rely on them to detect leaks. Hydrazine is carcinogenic even in small concentrations, and NTO poisoning can be insidiously delayed. You feel fine, and then die of pulmonary edema the next day. Specialized detectors were almost certainly the only option.

The LM was supplied with umbilical power to keep heaters and a few other small loads going without digging into the LMs own batteries. The CSM took over this function during the cruise to the moon. But I don't think the LM had any instrumentation for detecting propellant leaks, certainly not tiny ones that could still be extremely dangerous.

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #552 on: April 07, 2019, 12:47:02 PM »
When were the LM and CSM fueled?

Around L-30 days, or starting June 16 for Apollo 11.  LC-39 is basically evacuated for a week, because you have to fuel the SM, two stages of LM, and the S-IVB APS, and (as you note) a single chemical at a time.  In his book, Jonathan Ward has a great diagram of the work platforms for working on the LM inside the SLA, as well as Polaroids of workers installing the insulation on the footpads and the commemorative plaque.  That's why the ladder taping differs in pre-rollout photos.

In order to meet the Kennedy end-of-decade deadline, integration and rollout schedules during 1969 were greatly overlapped and -- in a sense -- compressed.  Stacking for Apollos 12 and 13 were arranged such that if Apollo 11 failed to land, 12 (and possibly 13) could be rolled out and prepared at greatly accelerated schedules.  Keep in mind the VAB could stack four Saturn Vs simultaneously.  Part of this was because there were originally going to be pads C and D at LC-39.  But the real goal was to shift as much work as possible to the pad and the MSS so that a high bay in the VAB could be freed up to stack another Saturn V in case they needed to launch a new mission fast.

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Once the tanks are loaded everyone treats it as a live bomb, carries a gas mask, and practices evacuation drills.

Jeff Quitney's YouTube channel had several excellent videos on procedures for handling hypergols.  Sadly the Copyright Gods seem to have smitten his whole channel from existence.  If only there were another way for him to share his vintage videos... (cough, Vimeo, cough).  In addition to ASTP, there was a post-flight accident while safing the Apollo 15 command module.  Even after the all-jets firing during the final descent, enough propellant remains in the CM hypergol tanks to cause severe injury.  This is also why Texas residents were warned to stay away from Columbia debris.  Even a tiny amount of these chemicals can be injurious.

At this point we have to remember the Titans.  The whole point of that system was to have "storable" propellants so that the missiles could be kept ready for launch at a moment's notice.  That whole infrastructure was stolen adapted to provide the safety protocols as well as the engineering.  The Air Force had a whole program for extending hypergol storage -- piping, seals, valves, etc.  And, of course, the specialized gas-sniffers you mention.  This all fed into Apollo, and this is what allowed them to load the propellants so early.  If you're thinking in terms of constraints, the constraint is, "When we are actively loading propellants, we have to evacuate the pad for a week."  When you schedule that week depends on many factors, and storability skills learned from Titan gives you more flexibility.in scheduling.  And yes, everyone who worked on the LUT or MSS after about June 22 had to be Propellant Hazards qualified.

Quote
Somewhere I have pictures of some friends jumping into the emergency chute from the top of the Ariane V gantry in Kourou during one of those drills.

Jonathan covers the escape chute and "rubber room" for LC-39 in some detail.  Fireproof, shockproof, self-contained, food and water for 24 men for a day.  He's the guy who probably knows more about Apollo launch preparations than anyone living today.
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline JayUtah

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #553 on: April 07, 2019, 07:06:49 PM »
you need a spill chucker....

See, I was going to go in a different direction.  Something like, "We'd like you to give the pathos and sarcasm tanks a stir."
"Facts are stubborn things." --John Adams

Offline dwight

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Re: Apollo 11 Lunar Lander Pre-Launch
« Reply #554 on: April 08, 2019, 12:45:18 PM »
And getting back to the 60's, do you know the networks did not have a direct feed to the moon landings? They literally had to record the footage off a video monitor. Talk about access to information.

Are you aware this statement is wrong?
"Honeysuckle TV on line!"