Author Topic: No tracks left by the moon buggy  (Read 21089 times)

Offline timbo

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No tracks left by the moon buggy
« on: August 03, 2015, 06:31:02 AM »
Hello new to this site
whilst looking at photos of the supposed moon landing I was shocked at just how bad they were. The buggy in some of these photos are so prepped it is laughable there are clean crisp foot prints suggesting a powder like surface but no tread pattern left by the buggy. the picture I attached is a clear demonstration of this. its as though the buggy was placed in these shots the area prepped and only after it looked good did they allow the actor to walk towards the buggy. This reoccurs time and time again. I must be seeing the wrong photos you can even see the line between stage and backdrop  I apologise if this is a reoccurring topic I was just after your thoughts thanks.
 

Offline bknight

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Re: No tracks left by the moon buggy
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2015, 06:53:16 AM »
I see tracks behind the left rear tire.  Remember that the rover drove to a location and then the astronauts got out walked around the rover aiming the high gain antenna, getting tools and devices to be used at that particular location.  All this movement kicked up dust as they both walked around.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Zakalwe

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Re: No tracks left by the moon buggy
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2015, 06:57:45 AM »
Welcome to the site

You need to view the picture along with the others in the series, rather than rely on a single image. It's really quite simple.....the rover drives up to a position, the astronauts gets out and move around the rover. Their actions re-disturb the regolith and either cover up (through dust sprays) the tracks or just erase them.

Heres an example from A15:



See, no "buggy" tracks?

Yet take the subsequent images and merge them into a single pane and you get this:



AS15-88-11901 to 11907 together. You can see the tracks leading to the site of the fallen astronaut/cosmonaut memorial and the disturbed regolith that has covered the tracks.

Further, if you go to the LRO site and look at the LRO images of the same landing site:


So, a modicum of research on your part will find you the answers.

Regarding the "line between the stage and backdrop"? Nonsense. Please show your experience in analysing photographs, especially those taken in a vacuum on a small diameter body, that would allow you to draw such a ridiculous conclusion.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 07:32:08 AM by Zakalwe »
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Offline HeadLikeARock

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Re: No tracks left by the moon buggy
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2015, 07:12:55 AM »
Hello new to this site
whilst looking at photos of the supposed moon landing I was shocked at just how bad they were. The buggy in some of these photos are so prepped it is laughable there are clean crisp foot prints suggesting a powder like surface but no tread pattern left by the buggy. the picture I attached is a clear demonstration of this. its as though the buggy was placed in these shots the area prepped and only after it looked good did they allow the actor to walk towards the buggy. This reoccurs time and time again. I must be seeing the wrong photos you can even see the line between stage and backdrop  I apologise if this is a reoccurring topic I was just after your thoughts thanks.
 

Timbo

I was involved in a discussion on this issue on the Education Forum back in 2007, here's a link to my post on that thread. Look through the successive images and see how easily the tracks are obscured by astronauts swapping positions as they take it in turns to take photos of each other at the flag, as well as the changes between different EVAs.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=81e255debd88c4c0ebc8e7099c8f45c1&showtopic=10998#entry118623

Any questions, fire away.


Offline Count Zero

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Re: No tracks left by the moon buggy
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2015, 07:15:31 AM »
Welcome Timbo!
Your answer can be found by watching extended clips of the EVAs.  Not the showy bits like the hammer & feather or the golf swing, but rather the long stretches when they're doing field geology or deploying experiments.  What you will see is an extraordinary phenomenon that cannot be replicated on Earth.

The lunar dust (called regolith) is extremely fine-grained, like like talc, plaster or cement (and holds a footprint just as well, as you noticed).  however, when you kick such fine powder on Earth, it always billows in our air.  Larger particles (like sand) do not billow as much, and will be seen to go a short distance when kicked - but it has to be a substantial kick.

On the Moon, in 1/6th gravity, just the small foot motions of the astronauts as they scuff around doing their work is often enough to send the dust flying a meter or more.  Also, without any air the dust does not billow at all.  Time and again, in the EVA footage you can see loping astronauts sending great fans of fine regolith in every direction.

At every stop the Lunar Roving Vehicle (LRV) made, the first thing the astronauts would do is get out, walk around the front, dust-off the TV camera, manually point the high-gain antenna at Earth so we could get the TV signal, then hop around to the back of the LRV to unload their sampling tools (in 1/6th g you can't really walk in the conventional sense - the kinematics don't allow it - but you can hop, skip, lope, bounce and sashay).  When they do this, they cannot help but kick dust all over the rover tracks.  When they move away and start photographically documenting the area, you can see that the area around the LRV (including the tracks) is completely covered with kicked dust and footprints.

However, if you look at photos taken further away from the LRV, you can often find the distinctive chevron tire-tracks from where the LRV drove up.  (I see that, while I have been writing this, others have posted examples).

Hope this helps.
"What makes one step a giant leap is all the steps before."

Offline bknight

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Re: No tracks left by the moon buggy
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2015, 07:16:51 AM »
Timbo

I was involved in a discussion on this issue on the Education Forum back in 2007, here's a link to my post on that thread. Look through the successive images and see how easily the tracks are obscured by astronauts swapping positions as they take it in turns to take photos of each other at the flag, as well as the changes between different EVAs.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=81e255debd88c4c0ebc8e7099c8f45c1&showtopic=10998#entry118623

Any questions, fire away.
Nice discussion and picture spread. :)
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline ka9q

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Re: No tracks left by the moon buggy
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2015, 07:16:59 AM »
Welcome to the site, timbo.

Please keep the following in mind:

The moon's gravity is only 17% that of the earth, meaning the rover's tires apply much less force on the surface.

The thickness of the lunar dust layer varies quite a bit from place to place.

The astronauts frequently worked around the rover: pointing the high-gain antenna at the earth; cleaning the TV camera and battery box covers; and loading and unloading equipment and samples. In so doing they kicked up quite a bit of dust and disturbed many rover tracks.

Because it was so light in lunar gravity, the astronauts actually did pick up the rover on occasion, usually to turn it around on a single spot. They found that easier than driving it.

The visibility of lunar surface features varies quite a bit depending on the exact shape of the surface and the direction of the sun. The lunar surface is much more uneven than it may seem from single photographs; look at some of the many stereo pairs to get a better feel for this.

The rover did in fact leave many clear tracks, as shown in many pictures both from the surface and later from orbit (e.g., from the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter).
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 07:20:59 AM by ka9q »

Offline timbo

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Re: No tracks left by the moon buggy
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2015, 07:26:49 AM »
Thanks for the answers and being tolerant

Offline Count Zero

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Re: No tracks left by the moon buggy
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2015, 07:48:23 AM »
Glad to help!  There's an incredible amount of information available, and a lot of answers you can get with some digging and even experimentation.  Right now I can't wait to get home and take a picture of "the line between stage and backdrop" which is actually a surprisingly common phenomenon in photography.   ;)
"What makes one step a giant leap is all the steps before."

Offline HeadLikeARock

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Re: No tracks left by the moon buggy
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2015, 07:52:26 AM »
Timbo

I was involved in a discussion on this issue on the Education Forum back in 2007, here's a link to my post on that thread. Look through the successive images and see how easily the tracks are obscured by astronauts swapping positions as they take it in turns to take photos of each other at the flag, as well as the changes between different EVAs.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=81e255debd88c4c0ebc8e7099c8f45c1&showtopic=10998#entry118623

Any questions, fire away.
Nice discussion and picture spread. :)

Can't believe that was 8 years ago! In a weird kind of way I almost miss the heady days of the Apollo hoax discussions (they've really quietened in recent years). Learnt an awful lot. When you really study the photographic and video record in depth, there's more than enough evidence there alone to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the moon landings happened. There's just too much correlation between images/video and other sources. The faint image of Venus exactly where it should have been in some of the Apollo 12 (might have been 14) photos is another great example.

Offline bknight

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Re: No tracks left by the moon buggy
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2015, 07:58:54 AM »
Timbo

I was involved in a discussion on this issue on the Education Forum back in 2007, here's a link to my post on that thread. Look through the successive images and see how easily the tracks are obscured by astronauts swapping positions as they take it in turns to take photos of each other at the flag, as well as the changes between different EVAs.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=81e255debd88c4c0ebc8e7099c8f45c1&showtopic=10998#entry118623

Any questions, fire away.
Nice discussion and picture spread. :)

Can't believe that was 8 years ago! In a weird kind of way I almost miss the heady days of the Apollo hoax discussions (they've really quietened in recent years). Learnt an awful lot. When you really study the photographic and video record in depth, there's more than enough evidence there alone to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the moon landings happened. There's just too much correlation between images/video and other sources. The faint image of Venus exactly where it should have been in some of the Apollo 12 (might have been 14) photos is another great example.
Being a space nut from the late 50's-60's, I dropped out of the technical following, just the telecasts, due to work.  Now that my time is more free to relive and learn what I missed is fun.  I have learned SOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH on this site about the missions.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline dwight

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Re: No tracks left by the moon buggy
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2015, 10:40:07 AM »
Hi Timbo,

there is also TV footage, where you can see exactly how much lunar dust is sprayed about by the astronauts as they work around the rover. It has been a long time since I viewed it, so I cannot remember exactly where it was, as it was part of another similar discussion several years back. Maybe one of the other members here can help out.

Regards
Dwight
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Offline bknight

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Re: No tracks left by the moon buggy
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2015, 10:43:27 AM »
Here is one example that dwight is talking about
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline dwight

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Re: No tracks left by the moon buggy
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2015, 10:43:50 AM »
Timbo

I was involved in a discussion on this issue on the Education Forum back in 2007, here's a link to my post on that thread. Look through the successive images and see how easily the tracks are obscured by astronauts swapping positions as they take it in turns to take photos of each other at the flag, as well as the changes between different EVAs.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=81e255debd88c4c0ebc8e7099c8f45c1&showtopic=10998#entry118623

Any questions, fire away.
Nice discussion and picture spread. :)

Can't believe that was 8 years ago! In a weird kind of way I almost miss the heady days of the Apollo hoax discussions (they've really quietened in recent years). Learnt an awful lot. When you really study the photographic and video record in depth, there's more than enough evidence there alone to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the moon landings happened. There's just too much correlation between images/video and other sources. The faint image of Venus exactly where it should have been in some of the Apollo 12 (might have been 14) photos is another great example.

I recall that. It was for Apollo 14, and it was a question posed by someone who did not believe the missions occured as stated. One of our members here (although I can't recall who it was, sorry) researched and uncovered a fairly big piece of evidence.
"Honeysuckle TV on line!"

Offline bknight

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Re: No tracks left by the moon buggy
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2015, 10:56:40 AM »
I recall that. It was for Apollo 14, and it was a question posed by someone who did not believe the missions occured as stated. One of our members here (although I can't recall who it was, sorry) researched and uncovered a fairly big piece of evidence.
Now how would NASA ever think of someone would actually question the position of objects.
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a14/AS14-64-9189.jpg
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a14/AS14-64-9194.jpg
show a series, Venus very dim ball just to the right of the high gain disk.
https://www.google.com/search?q=apollo+image+of+venus&biw=1366&bih=599&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMInI_Y75SNxwIVg5iACh0FAg0r#tbm=isch&q=apollo+14+image+of+venus&imgrc=KjxsO5Mggd1V-M%3A
Google's image is annotated.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan