Author Topic: Sun or lens flare?  (Read 3715 times)

Offline Willoughby

  • Venus
  • **
  • Posts: 85
Sun or lens flare?
« on: July 20, 2016, 04:23:47 PM »
Could anyone tell me with reasonable certainty whether the bright "thing" with the halo around it is actually the sun or if it is a lens flare?  It doesn't matter much either way - I'm just curious.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/projectapolloarchive/21672156762/in/album-72157656723857913/

My initial guess was lens flare simply because there are many similar to this, and I was under the impression that they specifically avoided pointing the cameras directly at the sun, but the shadows seem to line up right - if this were the sun.  Just curious.

Thanks.

Offline Allan F

  • Saturn
  • ****
  • Posts: 1007
Re: Sun or lens flare?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2016, 01:25:46 AM »
Draw a line through your object and the center of the picture - and notice the two bright spots in the lower right. Lens flare. But the sun is in the center of the big flare above the LM.
Well, it is like this: The truth doesn't need insults. Insults are the refuge of a darkened mind, a mind that refuses to open and see. Foul language can't outcompete knowledge. And knowledge is the result of education. Education is the result of the wish to know more, not less.

Offline Kiwi

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 471
Re: Sun or lens flare?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2016, 04:19:43 AM »
Could anyone tell me with reasonable certainty whether the bright "thing" with the halo around it is actually the sun or if it is a lens flare?

It's both.  The sun creating a large lens flare around itself and two more flares at lower right.

For any lunar surface photo you want to know about, always go to the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/frame.html
click on the mission, then Image Library, and look up the descriptions surrounding that particular photo (AS14-66-9306). If it's part of a pan (often indicated by "right of..." or similar), read the captions from the start to end of the pan, and also go back to Assembled Panoramas with the starting frame's number and see what those captions say, which in this case is...

Quote
114:57:20 LM 12 O'clock Pan (289k)

Al took this pan from a position west of the LM. The frames are AS14-66-9294 to 9316. Assembly by Dave Byrne.

A high-resolution version of the eastern portion (9 Mb) and a presentation of anagylphs in context (15 Mb) have been assembled by Eric Jones.

A high-resolution version of the western portion (8 Mb) and a presentation of anagylphs in context (12 Mb) have been assembled by Eric Jones.

Mike Constantine has created a continuous version (1.0Mb) in QuickTime format.

David Harland has used AS14-66-9305 and 9306 to show the LM with Cone Ridge just to the left of the spacecraft ( 0.9 Mb).

...but it includes links to everything. The first link (289k) is to a rather crappy old early-days version of the pan and the later ones are better.

Also click on the Ground Elapsed Time link (114:57:20) and read the journal well before and after that time in case there's more useful info.

Lens flares are so common that they're not mentioned much.

The individual shots in that pan close to the LM are good examples of some of the flares in lunar surface photos, but not all of them. There's a rarer one (in AS12-49-7278) that looks like one end of a single slat from a venetian blind.

That photo got dear old Ralph Rene going in his magnum dopus Nasa Mooned America! where he claimed that Pete Conrad was not carrying a camera. He missed the fact that the camera was on Pete's chest instead of up at eye level, where it would be of no use.

Ralph Rene was quite hopeless at analysing photographs.

He and I corresponded a little after Nexus magazine printed some of his hoax claims, and he sent me a free copy of his book. Nexus didn't publish my rebuttals, but I guess that when there's money to be made from publishing nonsense...

The Apollo 14 12 O'clock Pan also has two good examples of the "blue comet flare" in AS14-66-9292 and AS14-66-9301. It's not a flare that I recall seeing in my photography career and some people have claimed that it must be caused by cosmic rays, but I think JayUtah knows more about it being a processing fault.

There are tiny blue spots in many of the colour lunar surface photos and the earliest I've seen is in AS11-40-5906 at the far right edge, just above the horizon. There are also white dots in AS17-145-22158.

By the way, the quickest way to see the high-res photos without captions is to keep the following link and just change the mission number (twice), and film and frame numbers, and delete the HR if smaller photos are good enough.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5906HR.jpg

can become, with the appropriate changes,

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a14/AS14-66-9306HR.jpg

Note the extra distorted images of the fiducials/reticules/reticles/crosshairs in the big flare.  They have also got HBs calling "hoax" for no good reason. It's just a trick of the light.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 06:18:30 AM by Kiwi »
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline Kiwi

  • Mars
  • ***
  • Posts: 471
Re: Sun or lens flare?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2016, 07:29:01 AM »
Oops, too late to edit reply 2.

Slip of the fingers: In the post above, 9292 in the following sentence should be 9295

The Apollo 14 12 O'clock Pan also has two good examples of the "blue comet flare" in AS14-66-9292 and AS14-66-9301. [9292 should be 9295]

Thanks to having all lunar surface photos on the hard drive and IrfanView (one of the best freebies online - just press space or backspace to instantly load the next or the last picture or to watch a slo-mo movie), it was an easy task to find that Apollo 14's film 66 has many "blue comet flares."

AS14-66-9236 above shadow of dish antenna
AS14-66-9286
AS14-66-9290
AS14-66-9293 top
AS14-66-9295
AS14-66-9297 above horizon
AS14-66-9299 on horizon
AS14-66-9301
AS14-66-9309
AS14-66-9320
AS14-66-9327
AS14-66-9329
AS14-66-9330
AS14-66-9332
AS14-66-9335
AS14-66-9339
AS14-66-9345
AS14-66-9346
AS14-66-9348
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 07:35:13 AM by Kiwi »
Don't criticize what you can't understand. — Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-Changin'” (1963)
Some people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices and superstitions. — Edward R. Murrow (1908–65)

Offline bknight

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3107
Re: Sun or lens flare?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2016, 10:25:48 AM »
...
That photo got dear old Ralph Rene going in his magnum dopus Nasa Mooned America! where he claimed that Pete Conrad was not carrying a camera. He missed the fact that the camera was on Pete's chest instead of up at eye level, where it would be of no use.

Ralph Rene was quite hopeless at analysing photographs.anything

FTFY.  :)
Quote

He and I corresponded a little after Nexus magazine printed some of his hoax claims, and he sent me a free copy of his book. Nexus didn't publish my rebuttals, but I guess that when there's money to be made from publishing nonsense...

That Nexus didn't publish any rebuttals is totally in concert with the publisher, Marcus Allen
Quote
...
Good discussion of lens flares with examples.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Willoughby

  • Venus
  • **
  • Posts: 85
Re: Sun or lens flare?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2016, 11:50:05 AM »
Thanks for all the responses and great info.  I was aware that this photo was part of a pan.  I normally view the photographs from Flickr, and I didn't think to check the Apollo Surface Journal for the information - which was there.

A while back, I stumbled across a resource that listed many photographs, and in the comments of many of the photos, it actually said what exposure settings and lens was used for that particular photograph.  I don't believe it was the surface journal site, and I haven't been able to locate this source since.  Does anyone have any idea what I might have stumbled onto?

EDIT :  Never mind, I found it.  It IS on the surface journal site under "photo index".
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 11:52:56 AM by Willoughby »

Offline bknight

  • Neptune
  • ****
  • Posts: 3107
Re: Sun or lens flare?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2016, 01:34:42 PM »
Thanks for all the responses and great info.  I was aware that this photo was part of a pan.  I normally view the photographs from Flickr, and I didn't think to check the Apollo Surface Journal for the information - which was there.

A while back, I stumbled across a resource that listed many photographs, and in the comments of many of the photos, it actually said what exposure settings and lens was used for that particular photograph.  I don't believe it was the surface journal site, and I haven't been able to locate this source since.  Does anyone have any idea what I might have stumbled onto?

EDIT :  Never mind, I found it.  It IS on the surface journal site under "photo index".
I don't use flicker, personally, but go straight to ALSJ.  Be careful with the assembled pans, they may mislead you.  All the people who assembled them did it for their own artistic license and may ex/include parts that have clarifying images that aren't on the final pans.
Truth needs no defense.  Nobody can take those footsteps I made on the surface of the moon away from me.
Eugene Cernan

Offline Willoughby

  • Venus
  • **
  • Posts: 85
Re: Sun or lens flare?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2016, 03:16:42 PM »
The Flickr page I use is the Apollo Archive Project's Flickr page.  The link is found on the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal website.

You're right though - for INFORMATION on the photographs, the ALSJ is a much better resource, and it's my fault for not looking through it before I asked the question.